Anyone Want to Test This Beta Firmware

In to what load? What db?

Can you give me specifics of this statement? What scenario are you seeing this? How many dB? What is the loads impedance?

If you tell me the load you are driving in to I'd be happy to give you the actual test results.
All transformers will have a roll off depending on the load directly related to the cost and size of the transformer.
In most practical situations it is moot.
Thanks
John

I will gladly get you the info sir. I'll tap my friend and get his data and post it for you. :) Apparently he has plots and all to back it up.

Since trafos are coloring the sound to some extent, what effect would that have on the correction IR?
 
It isn't your friends information I need.
All I need is the input impedance of the device you will be driving with my line out box.
I have an Audio precision ATS-2 test station. It will give me very accurate test results.
This is what I need to know.
Are you guys plugging in to the input of the Axe or a rear input? If so the input impedance should be listed in the specs. With this I can load my box and run it thru the ATS-2 with a full frequency sweep. The higher the impedance the less bass roll off you will have for any transformer.
If the input impedance is lower than 20K you could always insert a simple buffer inbetween.
As far as transformers they are in many pieces of gear you play thru every day.
My line out box was specifically designed to drive line level effects in a system such as a wet dry wet where it excels. If you are worried about the transformer effecting the tone you can build a line out box with a resistor and a pot. It will be inexpensive and could have ground loop problems but then again may not. Saying a device has a cut off of 300Hz is like saying 100HP motor is not enough. Well it depends what you are using it for.
If I can be supplied with the input impedance of the Axe then I can tell you if my box is the right way to do it, if not I can suggest the right tool for the job.
I will gladly get you the info sir. I'll tap my friend and get his data and post it for you. :) Apparently he has plots and all to back it up.

Since trafos are coloring the sound to some extent, what effect would that have on the correction IR?
 
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DOES THIS ONE ALSO make it´s job for the new capturing method?
I have just one here, so if it is ok, I could test it.


Seems like this one has a single output. That won’t do. You need one that has an Output and a Thru or Link port. Output (line level signal) goes to the Axe-Fx. Thru/Link (speaker level signal) goes to the speaker cabinet.
 
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Seems like this one has a single output. That won’t do. You need one that has an Output and a Thru or Link port. Output goes to the Axe-Fx. Thru/Link goes to the speaker cabinet.

You can switch it to LINK port, but personally, i would`nt recommend that! One user error and the Axe is gone....
 
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I have a DI20. It is switchable to mono, channel2 are then outputs. Only drawback of this thing I have noticed: it is noisy on batteries, apparently not on phantom power. Or the other way around. Don't remember too well, but it was illogical, so I think it was the battery that was noisy, since that is a steady unconnected power source and illogical to cause instability in the electrical systems, ie noise.
It's odd and also a shame, otherwise this would be an awesome box. It sounds quite nice enough for not too demanding applications, it has an almost perfectly straight freq response.
 
FWIW, I would trust the Suhr DI box to be the most neutral DI box choice. The dominant cost in a DI box is usually the transformer and the quality of that transformer is paramount. Suhr doesn't skimp on stuff so I'd imagine the transformer is high quality (possibly a Jensen). IOW, you get what you pay for.

For this particular application a resistive "DI box" is actually better since you don't get any low-frequency rolloff. I use the output of my Faustine Phantom load-box which is just a resistive voltage divider. The drawback of this is the possibility of ground loops but if you use a Humbuster cable you don't have to worry about that.
 
Examples. Source: reamped DI signal, through the 4x12 Beatle cab, Royer 121 "B" (from Cab Pack 6).

1st clip without reference IR applied ("regular" UltraRes IR)

2nd clip with reference IR applied (same UltraRes IR with power amp coloration removed)

You may not hear any/much difference because the power amp coloration in the not-compensated IR already is minimal, due to professional IR capturing.

But you'll see differences when comparing the wave forms of the clips.


The 2nd one sounds a little more crisp/clear to me. Good job Yek!
 
Of course all this is tainted by the final listening device, and remains a question, what is the PERFECT FRFR fur URUR speaker... I mean my equators or EV's are going to totally change even the PERFECT IR. I do however completely realize and agree the source material might as well be at its most realistic and pristine otherwise shit going in is still shit going out so to speak. Im sure ERic Johnson would say my usb cable from the axe to my pc is greatly tainting my sound lol.
 
ok, I don't have the patience to paraphrase what my friend wrote... so... (it's a novel, but he's extremely detail oriented). Honestly. I'm almost afraid to post this, lol.

-------------
Eric,

The frequency response of the Suhr has a low frequency roll off as a result of the transformer used that provides the line level output from the input section. In months past a talented amp builder I am friends with had disassembled his unit to find the part number of this transformer (which is not a Jensen, as I have seen speculated), and while the specifics escape me this low frequency roll off was even defined in the spec sheet of the part. I ran a full frequency sweep through my unit at both line level and amp level, and both response plots verify this. D/A and A/D conversion on the loop is provided by a Prism Orpheus. Line level cables are Vovox, amp level cables are Monster. The power amp used for the amp level load when the Suhr was used as designed between the amp and the cabinet is a Bryston 3B-ST which is rated at 120 watts per side at 8 ohms. The speaker cabinet used as the load is a Mesa Boogie 4x12 with a quad of 8 ohm Celestion Vintage 30's wired in Series Parallel. My multimeter measured the cumulative impedance of the speaker cabinet at 7.1 ohms.

Below is the frequency response of the Suhr Iso Line Out with a line level signal applied to the input. No through signal to the load was sent, and the output on the pot is at 10 (open) to prevent any skew there. The return signal went straight back to the input of the Orpheus, so there is no mic preamp coloration or frequency response deviation.

+++(graph1)
graph one.jpg

The below plot was used between the Bryston and Mesa (and speaker level cables to the Suhr and then to the cab), as the unit is designed for, and the returned frequency response is almost identical. Again, the pot was set to 10 and returned directly back into the Orpheus.

+++(graph2)
graph2.jpg


If you then take the plot of the line signal and use it as the reference response, then plot the amp level signal against it, the deviation of the power amp and speaker cables compared to the line level cables is drastically less than the deviation incurred by use of a (or perhaps, just this) signal tap by way of the transformer used.

+++(graph3)
graph 3.jpg

This deviation is also primarily in the inaudible and unusable frequency range for electric guitar amps, and could be considered negligible. This deviation may not even be caused by the amps and cables, but the unit itself when used with different connections, however I am currently not able to devote more time to this to look into it further.

Case in point USING THE ABOVE TEST DATA:

When using quality and/or appropriate source materials, the requirement for this type of response alteration may in fact, depending on the equipment used, be causing MORE of a deviation from the natural response of the sampled system than what would have been if quality and/or appropriate source materials were used from the start. Again, using the above test data as a reference for the following statement, the primary advantage to this response alteration process would then be to compensate for inappropriate or low quality source materials, such as a guitar power amp or cheap solid state power amp to counteract the non flat signal transmitted as the stimulus.

Additionally, this process in general falls more in line with "simulation" of a guitar cabinet than practical recording. If a high quality solid state amplifier, reference microphone, and transformerless flat response microphone amplifier were used, yes, this process could be deemed highly advantageous for accurate measurement data. That said, most mic'ing up a guitar cabinet are using tube amps, and SM57/R121, and transformer based "colored" mic preamps. The deviation from flat response in the typical mics and preamps make the pedantic point of this process being more accurate null and void when using high quality and/or appropriate equipment, and again support the fact that this feature is primarily intended for compensating the use of improper equipment from the onset. This is not a negative thing, but a positive one, however it would seem this point has been lost amongst those debating it from a purely speculative and theoretical standpoint, less those that have actually done things like the above tests themselves and collected measurement data.

In summary:

The device used as the signal tap between the amp and the load that converts amp level signal to line level signal to create the "reference" measurement of the power amp frequency response in which the inverse is applied the cab capture has the possibility of deviating further from a flat frequency response than the equipment (power amp and cables) that they are trying to negate with this process. This process is fantastic for potentially flattening the response of a tube guitar amp or a cheap solid state power amp that may deviate even further or in different areas of the frequency response, but it is no way better than using super high quality, ruler flat reference amplifiers from the onset. I realize that is not an option for everyone, and this process offers a usable work around for those without said ideal equipment, but is not necessary for those who are or who's aim is not simulation with a full reference type equipment chain (amp, mic, preamp, environment).
 
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Well, i think i have to measure tomorrow my cheapy Behringer GI100 with the best convertors i have - the ones from my axe-fx ... puh...
 
So, i reproduced the line-level measurement (erockomania repostet from his friend) with my "hobbyist-level" gear:

- Prosumer AD/DA Converter (Terratec Producer X24) working at 24bit/48kHz
- Consumer DI Box (Behringer GI100, with settings for reference IR shootings (GroundLift On, SPKR Sim off)
- Cables: Standard speaker cable & XLR cable

Results:

Overview: 10Hz - 24kHz
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Detail: 20000Hz
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Detail: 100Hz
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Detail: 50Hz
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Detail: 20Hz
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In summary:

From 50Hz to 20kHz the almost flat response increase from 130,084db to 130,672db: 0,612db. totally negligible, IMHO.
From 50Hz to 100Hz we`ll see an increased roll off in total of 0,167db (130,084db to 130,247db)
From 20Hz to 50Hz we`ll see the increased roll off in total of 0,867db (129,217db to 130,084)

Total variance from 20Hz - 20kHz = 1,455db.

While 1,455db could be theoratically be noticeable, the range from 50Hz to 20kHz will be for sure more juicy, because speaker cabinets work in common from 50-70Hz up to 5-7kHz. So, in this range `ll see a deviation <0,612db. Let`s say from 50Hz to 9kHz a deviation from 0,316db, this is "nothing"!

Conclusion: This consumer setup seems to be valid for reference IR tecnique, also in use with a common proofed solid state Amplifer, like the Matrix GT1000 represent.
 
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In a nutshell,
The Iso Line out is designed to supply a line out and eliminate ground loops.
The main purpose is to drive effects and power amps with an isolated line level signal from the guitar amp.
Phase switch and ground lift included.
With 100K load it has a -3dB point of 80Hz and -10dB at 20Hz, not a "cut off of 300Hz"
The vertical graph's scale posted here and threshold of actual hearing needs to be considered when looking at sweeps.
In the application it was designed for a Jensen is a completely unnecessary expense to the consumer.
As designed for the purpose the Iso Line Out does exactly what it is supposed to do. I have built the same circuit with high end Jensen transformers 6X the cost of the Triad and equivalent we use with absolutely no audible difference for the intended application.
Consider the frequency response of a guitar speaker as well.

Whether or not this is an "issue" with the intent being discussed here is something I would ask Cliff to chime in on.
I certainly agree with Cliff that if the goal is to eliminate any deviation in the frequency response then why use a transformer at all unless you have a ground loop issue.
Simply use a 47K resistor feeding a 5K pot, slap it in a box and call it a day.

JS
 
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The genius that made my guitar discussing stuff I dont understand with the genius who made my processor. How cool is that. And I've read it. Twice. To think I took up the guitar thirty years ago just to get laid (didnt work btw).
If you guys need any further input from me I'll be out back listening to motorhead..........
 
In a nutshell,
The Iso Line out is designed to supply a line out and eliminate ground loops.
The main purpose is to drive effects and power amps with an isolated line level signal from the guitar amp.
Phase switch and ground lift included.
With 100K load it has a -3dB point of 80Hz and -10dB at 20Hz, not a "cut off of 300Hz"
The vertical graph's scale posted here and threshold of actual hearing needs to be considered when looking at sweeps.
In the application it was designed for a Jensen is a completely unnecessary expense to the consumer.
As designed for the purpose the Iso Line Out does exactly what it is supposed to do. I have built the same circuit with high end Jensen transformers 6X the cost of the Triad and equivalent we use with absolutely no audible difference for the intended application.
Consider the frequency response of a guitar speaker as well.

Whether or not this is an "issue" with the intent being discussed here is something I would ask Cliff to chime in on.
I certainly agree with Cliff that if the goal is to eliminate any deviation in the frequency response then why use a transformer at all unless you have a ground loop issue.
Simply use a 47K resistor feeding a 5K pot, slap it in a box and call it a day.

JS

An 80 Hz lower cutoff frequency is a bit higher than ideal but certainly not a show-stopper. Typically the LF cutoff is a function of the source resistance more than the load resistance as the load resistance is usually very high. The LF cutoff is given by the source resistance and the transformer primary inductance as f = R / (2 * pi * L) so the lower the source resistance the lower the cutoff frequency.

I don't know the primary inductance so I can't give any numbers but for the typical user the Suhr ISO Box is definitely suited to the task. Remember that this is not it's primary intended application. I stand by my original assessment that the Suhr is probably one of the finer DI boxes available because of their reputation for quality. Some of those other manufacturers listed design to a price-point as opposed to quality metrics.

The point of this whole thing was to give people who don't have access to a "reference quality" power amp a way to capture IRs using almost any amp they have lying around. If you are concerned with absolute accuracy a resistive divider is the best solution along with a Humbuster cable. If you do this you can use "mid grade" power amps (say $500) and get laboratory quality IRs as opposed to having to use a $3000 Bryston or what-not.
 
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