Amp in the Room?

[muudrock]

This intrigues me.. I'm gonna try it in a parallel set up with the cab block. I've alway used some form of EQ help with IRs since there is no perfect one. Never had the patience to figure this out though. Looking forward to trying it.

 

[Stratoblaster]

How about using the Null IR mixed with this method? I think that would be what you are referring to as a "dummy" cab. You'd have all the normal cab block controls without the IR filtering since its a null IR.

Ahhhh yea, a Null IR would be just the ticket there I would think; good call...

 

[Stratoblaster]

This is how I simulated speakers back in the 90s. Series Butterworth lowpass filters and 1/3 octave eq. Very similar to the Red Box and Palmer.

It lacks character, but sounds up front and in your face. IRs can be the opposite; too much comb filter character. I used to blend a Palmer IR with other IRs, but the Dephase parameter made this obsolete for me.

Sending to a cab makes sense to me. More control and variety.

I too experimented with EQ circuits for speaker emulators at that time as well. I crafted up a few that really sounded good with several tube preamps (JMP-1, Rocktron Piranha, etc.) but the entire rig was missing that all-important tube amp/speaker ecosystem and just didn't feel all that great. I was trying to get away from big tube power amps at that time so never really did the load box thing with the sims.

 

[haffner1]

I thinks this could be a great new effects block as an alternative to using a cab block. Maybe have some drop down options with different EQ curves to approximate various speakers for ease of use. Maybe call it the K&H Pinkbox for laughs!

 

[Chris Hurley]

Years ago i think I asked about a cabinet simulator block and was told that it didn't make sense when you could use cab blocks.

Years later here we are and now everybody loves it.

I tried Cliff's suggestion this morning through my CLR and it sounded pretty good to me. I expected it to sound like I remember a redbox sounding but it really didn't.

Analog speaker Sims that I've tried in the past generally have a characteristic sound that I've never cared for--something that screams out "THIS IS A DI!!." This makes me wonder why it's working this time. Maybe the 5k rolloff is sharper than the typical cab Sim.

Even the rocktron stuff that was heralded back in the day never sounded good to me but maybe the massively better Amp Sims make the difference.

Maybe it's the CLR.

 

[Nahtanis]

Okay, I tried this out with my live setup and it sounds amazing! This is magic.

 

[Stratoblaster]

Analog speaker Sims that I've tried in the past generally have a characteristic sound that I've never cared for--something that screams out "THIS IS A DI!!." This makes me wonder why it's working this time. Maybe the 5k rolloff is sharper than the typical cab Sim.

...the Filter block replicates the rolloff but lets the natural response of the speaker come through.

I would suspect that the combination of the steep roll off filter in combination with a 'voicing' filter both combine to make for a better sounding EQ cab sim overall, and having two EQ's provides interesting options to tune them as you've now separated the hard roll-off high end characteristic and the overall voicing of a speaker into component parts that you can tweak individually.

In Cliff's post I notice the 'voicing' GEQ roughly follows a general closed back speaker/cab curve; the 125Hz resonant bump, a little bump in the high mids, etc. Interesting that the 4K bump is bracketed by the adjacent bands which are pulled down a bit.

I definitely need to play with this again; having such awesome EQ control is very cool...

 

[symphx]

Ive asked for a speaker emulator block as well

 

[Shaw]

The parametric EQ and multiband compressor might be other interesting tools to use for sculpting this Cab-less tone...

 

[bke]

Just tried this out, think i really like it - took some tweaking, but tried also the some of the options on the speaker page of the amp block - i had good results with the LF res Q, increasing it to give some bottom end, messed around with the HF slope aswell - seemed to work to help dial in to make it sound even better to my old ears.

I can see a future where there is a CAB block not based off IR's that allow you to select this 'stock' types of CAB's with some power controls to dial in further + possibly some room type controls.. would love to see something like that as i really don't like the IR rabbit hole and don't actually use them that much for that reason - this, with some tweaking seems to potentially be really great alternative.

 

[zenaxe]

Years ago i think I asked about a cabinet simulator block and was told that it didn't make sense when you could use cab blocks.

Years later here we are and now everybody loves it.

Brutal honesty: It’s only because Cliff Initiated the thread. I will take an IR any day over any other tech I have heard to date... Long term possibility of an algorithmic Cab block is very intriguing though and Cliff is the only person that can make that happen.

 

[chris]

Years ago i think I asked about a cabinet simulator block and was told that it didn't make sense when you could use cab blocks.

Years later here we are and now everybody loves it.

Not everyone.

Is this a “cabinet simulator block” though? I don’t understand what that means.

 

[MicFarlow]

Try this:
Make a patch with no cab block.
After the amp put a Filter block. Reset to make sure all parameters are at default values.
Set the type to Lowpass.
Set the Order to 4th.
Set the Freq to ~5000.
Set the High Cut Freq to ~5000.

Adjust the Freq and High Cut Freq to taste. For more aggressive tones increase both to 6000 or so. For warmer tones decrease both to 4000 or so.

Now, to add some "character" put a Graphic EQ or Parametric EQ block after (or before) the Filter block. Boost 125 Hz a little. Play around with some of the midrange and upper midrange bands to change the character of the tone. This is what I used:
31: 0.0
63 Hz: 0.6
125 Hz: 4.57
250 Hz: 0.25
500: 0.0
1K: -5.0
2K: -2.27
4K: 1.95
8K: -1.0
16K: -5.77

The reasoning behind this is that there is no such thing as a "flat" speaker. All speakers, even really expensive monitors have peaks and dips in the response. That's why they all sound different. The primary thing a guitar speaker does is roll off the highs aggressively at somewhere between 4K and 6K Hz. The Filter block replicates the rolloff but lets the natural response of the speaker come through.

We provide a switch to bypass the crossover (and turn off the tweeter) in our passives and also have a dedicated mode in all of our actives to allow for just this type of option. It can work surprisingly well in many scenarios including this one that Cliff describes.

So FRFR on the one hand and at the flip of a switch or press of a button on the amp you have a 12" raw driver to play with.

 

[NaN]

In Cliff's post I notice the 'voicing' GEQ roughly follows a general closed back speaker/cab curve; the 125Hz resonant bump, a little bump in the high mids, etc. Interesting that the 4K bump is bracketed by the adjacent bands which are pulled down a bit.

Yeah this pattern looks a lot like an impedance curve of a guitar speaker... Only less spikey on the low resonant frequency.


I did a very little reading on the subject just now but it triggers a lot of very stupid noob questions...

Here are some:

1.The boosted 125 hz is close to the low resonant frequency (LRF) of a real cab (80~120Hz range I believe for 4x12). So is it save to say that a boosted LRF and High Resonant Frequencies makes it sound more like a cab in the room?

2. Would it help if the Low resonant frequency (LRF) of the amp block in this case would also be set to 125 Hz like you would do when matching a real cabs LRF in conjunction with the axe-fx and a solid state amp?

3. Why not boosting the 125Hz a lot more with a smaller range to mimic the impedance curve more?

4. Can you get faster distortion on the low resonant frequency or is this already built in....? (I believe at the resonant frequencies an amp/speaker also distorts more easily!?)

5. Besides speaker IRs, are there cab IRs (of the cab, not speakers), with reported low and high resonant frequencies so you can match this in your amp block and use it side by side with a speaker IR, so it farts out a bit more at those resonant frequencies?

It's very interesting stuff because I really like the amp in the room thing.
So I really love the fact that Fractal Audio is still trying to get it! Thx!

 

[Casper]

This is great. Reminds me of when I used to run my Triaxis record outs direct to the PA. You can get some killer tones this way, and the edgier sound is particularly suitable for outdoors playing and when you are using delay. I think old PA systems were kind of like having a cab anyway.

 

[GM Arts]

Cab emulation like this is very appealing from the viewpoint of dialling in the tones we want. Removes the crapshoot of trawling through thousands of IRs only to be unsure whether you've found anything better.

Adding a flanger block or two with very short delays (but no modulation or feedback) might be a good way to add in some notches in the frequency response. Variable depth (with the mix control) and variable frequency (with the delay time).

I know true can modelling is a significant undertaking, but maybe a cab emulator block ???

 

[yeky83]

Yeah this pattern looks a lot like an impedance curve of a guitar speaker... Only less spikey on the low resonant frequency.

The EQ pattern doesn't look like a speaker impedance curve much, since speaker impedance rises at higher freq.

1.The boosted 125 hz is close to the low resonant frequency (LRF) of a real cab (80~120Hz range I believe for 4x12). So is it save to say that a boosted LRF and High Resonant Frequencies makes it sound more like a cab in the room?

2. Would it help if the Low resonant frequency (LRF) of the amp block in this case would also be set to 125 Hz like you would do when matching a real cabs LRF in conjunction with the axe-fx and a solid state amp?

3. Why not boosting the 125Hz a lot more with a smaller range to mimic the impedance curve more?

4. Can you get faster distortion on the low resonant frequency or is this already built in....? (I believe at the resonant frequencies an amp/speaker also distorts more easily!?)

Speaker impedance stuff is already taken care of at the Axe-Fx's amp block.

IMHO looks like Cliff probably boosted 125 Hz to simulate the feel of 2x12, 4x12, etc. type cabs. I don't think it has anything to do with impedance or resonance since it's already been taken care of in the amp block.

 

[yeky83]

I’ve always thought a problem with IR’s is they are static, its how the speaker responded at a given output level at a given moment. There is no way to dynamically change an IR to date, though I think the now mostly forgot Nebula software tried to do soemthing to that extent?

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...g-speaker-cabinets.135191/page-2#post-1599277

Perhaps this could be the solution to how to do emulate a rotary speaker cabinet, because its dynamic nature and capturing a single IR only results in on position of the drum and/or rotor.

You’d need a bunch of different IR’s taken over it’s cycle of rotation, and then dynamically cycle through them, which isn’t possible.

If we could dynamically adjust the EQ to respond in real time to what happens as it rotates, it seems to me we could have improved rotary speaker emulation with regards to how it would be perceived from a stereo source?

Use the rotary block?

 

[Piing]

This conversation reminds me of the "Harmonic Converger". That external device made by Radley to give a "magic character" to the guitar modellers (before the Fractal Audio era). I did buy one of these for the Boss GT Pro.

He claimed that his secret circuit was not just an equalizer and that it restored "tube-amp essence". Cliff demonstrated at the old forum, with an spectral analysis, that it was only an equalizer.

 

[symphx]

its all equalization in some way...