Why No Authentic Tab For Effects Types??

[la szum]

Will I be extinguished for asking this? Has it be been beaten to death before?

Maybe I am in the dark, but I wonder if there is an "Authentic" Tab in the Amp Block
that mimics and mirrors the acxtual controls on the face of the amp being modeled,
then why is there no such thing for any of the effects types?

Am I wrong for thinking there should be? For instance, I have an old MXR Script 90
Phase pedal that has one control. Couldn't there an an Authentic tab in the Phaser
Block that simply varies the Speed of the Phase, and then another Tab for those
who want to go deeper and tweak to their hearts content?

 

[unix-guy]

I think this has been discussed before.

The main thing is that only Amp and Drive blocks use only "models".

All the other blocks have "types". Some are all "general" and some are a mix of general types and "pseudo" models.

So the concept doesn't really apply well to other blocks.

 

[la szum]

Sounds like I have just found my calling.

Is a "Script 90" in the Phaser Block a model or a type? Or a type of model?

Guess I am not following (or hip to) the logic being applied.

(Not trying to be funny about it, I just honestly don't understand the methodology).

 

[unix-guy]

Sounds like I have just found my calling.

Is a "Script 90" in the Phaser Block a model or a type? Or a type of model?

Guess I am not following (or hip to) the logic being applied.

(Not trying to be funny about it, I just honestly don't understand the methodology).

To be honest, I'm not sure...

But look at the choices in Type:


You can see some are names you know like Script 90 but others are just general like Barberpole.

So how would you apply "authentic" in this case?

Yes, for Script 90 that could work... But not for Barberpole.

Hopefully that helps?

 

[TSJMajesty]

I think it could be very useful for the "types" that are direct models.
Wasn't there a drive that Cliff said turned out wrong, because the unit he possessed was defective? That sounds like he was modelling an actual pedal.

 

[rhummellh]

I think it could be very useful for the "types" that are direct models.
Wasn't there a drive that Cliff said turned out wrong, because the unit he possessed was defective? That sounds like he was modelling an actual pedal.

I think that was the Blackglass B7K

 

[unix-guy]

I think it could be very useful for the "types" that are direct models.
Wasn't there a drive that Cliff said turned out wrong, because the unit he possessed was defective? That sounds like he was modelling an actual pedal.

The Drive block is already authentic on the main page...

You're probably thinking of the Darkglass B7K model.

I think the challenge is the authentic view is sort of an "all or nothing" for each block. So for something like the Phaser that has both "real" models and "general" types, it wouldn't apply.

Of course, that's really a question for Fractal. These are just my opinions based on past experience and related posts.

 

[rhummellh]

The Drive block is already idealized on the main page...

You're probably thinking of the Darkglass B7K model.

I think the challenge is the ideal view is sort of an "all or nothing" for each block. So for something like the Phaser that has both "real" models and "general" types, it wouldn't apply.

Of course, that's really a question for Fractal. These are just my opinions based on past experience and related posts.

Yeah, your right. Thanks

 

[TSJMajesty]

The Drive block is already idealized on the main page...

I was just using that as an example.
But I too have wondered this same thing. Like with the Dimension... When I first came to Fractal, being a newbie, not joining in the fun until the Axe III, I kind of expected things to be set up just the same as the gear they, I'll say, "emulate," as a broader term.

I mean, it's nice to have so much to tweak, but sometimes I wish the controls, on a page dedicated to this, were set up just the same. Hope that makes sense.

 

[yyz67]

It seems that most blocks besides drive and amp consist of a set of a few generalized algorithms rather than models of actual circuits/pedals/rack presets (e.g. phasers, choruses, delays, compressors...).

For example, for delay there looks to be a tape-based algorithm and a BBD-type algorithm and a general flexible delay algorithm (or maybe a few), each of which has multiple "type presets" that approximate some well-known delay types. But they also share other tweakable parameters across all algorithms like EQ and modulation.

So with this approach doesn't make sense to have "authentic" tab if they aren't modeling specific circuits/pedals.

 

[laxu]

To me effects need to be approached from a different point of view: Simplified page. This would only contain either:

1. Controls that match the original effect modeled if the model is of a real device. So let's say you pick the Spring Reverb, this could have controls that match e.g a Fender spring reverb tank.
2. Controls that are the most important for that effect type. With so many controls on each block, finding which ones are most relevant can be difficult if you are not familiar with the effect.

Like with amp blocks, there's always the Ideal page for all the controls if you want.

At the moment the things that are "hard" to do with effects are things like say modulation because you need to learn how LFOs work. Many pedals have a knob that says "Mod" on it and you simply turn that up to get a nice sounding modulation going. So to add e.g modulation to a delay, you could have a "Mod" knob on the Simplified page that sets the LFOs in a nice way for you and you simply adjust how much modulation you want to add.

While the defaults for many effects work well out of the box, making adjustments can still be daunting on some if the terminology seems alien because you don't see some controls on any pedal for example. E.g a typical delay you aren't dealing with different feedbacks for L/R even if the pedal is stereo and so on.

Fractal adding more preset sounds e.g to Multitap block has made me want to use it more because it's no longer a headscratcher when you have multiple good sounds to choose from as presets and can then tweak those a bit more. I could see taking this further with a Simplified page of effects controls could make it easier on the user, just like the Authentic page did for amp models.

 

[Smittefar]

I think a basic page would help in many instances. Some of the FX blocks are daunting. The good thing is that most types sound good at default settings

 

[guitarnerdswe]

It seems that most blocks besides drive and amp consist of a set of a few generalized algorithms rather than models of actual circuits/pedals/rack presets (e.g. phasers, choruses, delays, compressors...).

For example, for delay there looks to be a tape-based algorithm and a BBD-type algorithm and a general flexible delay algorithm (or maybe a few), each of which has multiple "type presets" that approximate some well-known delay types. But they also share other tweakable parameters across all algorithms like EQ and modulation.

So with this approach doesn't make sense to have "authentic" tab if they aren't modeling specific circuits/pedals.

Bingo. For instance, the phase 90 type isn't a replica of a phase 90, just something in the general ball park.

There are a few types that are modelled on particular units, but those aren't many (and generally done by users first, then added as a type in the Axe).

 

[effulgent]

Sigh. There is always google and reading the manual; it’s disappointing and disheartening when new users request simpler controls because they’re unwilling to figure it out and fill in their own knowledge gaps.

I, for one, don’t want to lose functionality to cater to users who want everything done for them.

 

[laxu]

Sigh. There is always google and reading the manual; it’s disappointing and disheartening when new users request simpler controls because they’re unwilling to figure it out and fill in their own knowledge gaps.

I, for one, don’t want to lose functionality to cater to users who want everything done for them.

It's not losing functionality. Do you lose functionality because the Authentic page does not show all the controls? No. You can use the Ideal page if you want all of them. A similar approach to effects would work fine.

Sometimes you want something that is dead easy to work with. As an example, my favorite real compressor pedal is the Keeley Compressor Mini. That's because it has two knobs: volume and compression. I don't need to learn about attack/release times, blends, thresholds etc. Keeley has figured all that for me so I can just turn those two knobs to where I like and get a compression that works for me. That's about as much as I want from a compressor so I have no interest in an Origin Cali76 for example.

As a more complex example, I have a Strymon Nightsky on my board. It's one of the more complex reverb pedals out there. I bought it because I do want more control over my reverb sounds. However its control set is intuitive and all the controls are right there on the front panel. It's a reverb playground that is fun to work with. But sometimes I still use my Strymon Flint because it's 3 knobs and a switch with no "bad" settings so it's more straightforward for basic reverbs.

Now imagine picking one of the more ambient reverb types on Fractal and getting a Simplified page that collects the controls that would be most relevant to that effect. Maybe you want to tweak a shimmer effect on it a bit. Instead of digging up the relevant controls somewhere deep in the additional pages, Fractal could have a knob on the Simplified page that is just called "Shimmer" and is a one stop adjustment to that, working some parameters behind the scenes. The more precise controls are still there when you need them.

I feel like this could add the pedal-like simplicity to Fractal that it is currently lacking in its effects. Most people's experience with effects are pedals with only a few controls, not studio rack gear. The Authentic page for amp models has taken out a lot of guesswork from working with amp models by letting users play with them in a similar way to how they would operate the real thing.

 

[effulgent]

It's not losing functionality. Do you lose functionality because the Authentic page does not show all the controls? No. You can use the Ideal page if you want all of them. A similar approach to effects would work fine.

Sometimes you want something that is dead easy to work with. As an example, my favorite real compressor pedal is the Keeley Compressor Mini. That's because it has two knobs: volume and compression. I don't need to learn about attack/release times, blends, thresholds etc. Keeley has figured all that for me so I can just turn those two knobs to where I like and get a compression that works for me. That's about as much as I want from a compressor so I have no interest in an Origin Cali76 for example.

As a more complex example, I have a Strymon Nightsky on my board. It's one of the more complex reverb pedals out there. I bought it because I do want more control over my reverb sounds. However its control set is intuitive and all the controls are right there on the front panel. It's a reverb playground that is fun to work with. But sometimes I still use my Strymon Flint because it's 3 knobs and a switch with no "bad" settings so it's more straightforward for basic reverbs.

Now imagine picking one of the more ambient reverb types on Fractal and getting a Simplified page that collects the controls that would be most relevant to that effect. Maybe you want to tweak a shimmer effect on it a bit. Instead of digging up the relevant controls somewhere deep in the additional pages, Fractal could have a knob on the Simplified page that is just called "Shimmer" and is a one stop adjustment to that, working some parameters behind the scenes. The more precise controls are still there when you need them.

I feel like this could add the pedal-like simplicity to Fractal that it is currently lacking in its effects. Most people's experience with effects are pedals with only a few controls, not studio rack gear. The Authentic page for amp models has taken out a lot of guesswork from working with amp models by letting users play with them in a similar way to how they would operate the real thing.

You don’t seem to acknowledge that this professional gear and your desire for simplicity is inhibiting your capacity to learn new things. The amount of time and effort to program what you’re asking for could be used to implement other features.

And, you know, you don’t have to touch any parameters besides the ones you already know. When you select an effect type, it automatically picks the default settings of that type. Further, there is the global and per-preset perform functionality for parameters.

One of the greatest things that fractal audio has done for me is inspire me to learn what all those parameters do by reading the manual. While unsolicited advice, I suggest reading the block guide all the way through.

Beyond all that, this belongs in the feature request section of the forum, not the main forum imo.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Now imagine picking one of the more ambient reverb types on Fractal and getting a Simplified page that collects the controls that would be most relevant to that effect. Maybe you want to tweak a shimmer effect on it a bit. Instead of digging up the relevant controls somewhere deep in the additional pages, Fractal could have a knob on the Simplified page that is just called "Shimmer" and is a one stop adjustment to that, working some parameters behind the scenes. The more precise controls are still there when you need them.

I LOVE this idea!

As far as the OP, this is partly what I was getting at in my wishlist item regarding the difference between actual varying topologies (different algorithm with different parameters) and then effect presets within each effect block/type.

 

[FractalAudio]

Bingo. For instance, the phase 90 type isn't a replica of a phase 90, just something in the general ball park.

No, the Phase 90 type IS a replica of a Phase 90. Our models/types simply expose stuff that is not exposed with the real pedal.

We could have an Authentic page for the various models but why limit yourself?

 

[Omri Bazelet]

No, the Phase 90 type IS a replica of a Phase 90. Our models/types simply expose stuff that is not exposed with the real pedal.

We could have an Authentic page for the various models but why limit yourself?

Because sometimes when something is replicated to a real life product, people expect it to have the original knobs and behavior. For example if they have that pedal on their pedal or trying to match someone else tone.
I think that advanced parameters are awesome, but should be optional in a seperated tab, just like the drive and amp blocks.

 

[My name is mud]

Because sometimes when something is replicated to a real life product, people expect it to have the original knobs and behavior. For example if they have that pedal on their pedal or trying to match someone else tone.
I think that advanced parameters are awesome, but should be optional in a seperated tab, just like the drive and amp blocks.

+1

Real stuff and knobs first, others page for advanced settings