Why No Authentic Tab For Effects Types??

[Watt McCo]

How hard would it be to make an option in Axe edit where you could right click on a knob and one of the options would be "hide", which would then hide that parameter for that patch?

The community is robust enough that you'd quickly have a whole bunch of folks making block presets that others could use that leave only the relevant knobs visible.

Making the decisions about what would be an an "authentic tab" for each and every effect model would be (a) tedious and (b) something would just lead to a lot of complaints arguments about why the knobs that appear on the authentic tab for type A were chosen and not some other LaXu-always-knows-better set.

Going this route would allow power users to create a bunch of block presets that weak users could then check out and find ones that work well for there needs and level of manual-comprehension.

On the one hand this could be totally possible today in that users could make a block presets and post it with text saying "only touch these knobs", but on the other...anyone that doesn't get why that's not anywhere near as ideal as being able to hide knobs completely understands human nature so poorly they shouldn't be allowed out in public.

 

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Making the decisions about what would be an an "authentic tab" for each and every effect model would be (a) tedious and (b) something would just lead to a lot of complaints arguments about why the knobs that appear on the authentic tab for type A were chosen and not some other LaXu-always-knows-better set.

Well I don’t know about belonging in the LaXu-always-knows-better set, more likely the null set, but it’s clear he brings UI design knowledge to the table and some of his suggestions have been spot on.

Personally, the issue at hand is this - I’m not interested in being a sound designer or audio engineer. And the use of generics pushes you in that direction. So anything that reduces impedance for using an effect makes my life easier. In other words, less is more. How it is done is a design and implementation issue that lies well beyond the realm of my expertise.

 

[Watt McCo]

Personally, the issue at hand is this - I’m not interested in being a sound designer or audio engineer. And the use of generics pushes you in that direction. So anything that reduces impedance for using an effect makes my life easier. In other words, less is more.

Meh, an all-in-one box is always going to be the high-impedance approach to using any one effect. No UI will ever change that. If people want Fractal to spin wheels on this issue for THAT reason...I'd say they're probably making the right call in ignoring it.

But it seems like there's a big enough subset of users that just can't figure out how to use some of the effects blocks such that some form of simplification and/or hand-holding beyond the manual is needed. When there are experienced guitarists that are not using the delay block because they don't know how, even after reading the manual (which doesn't surprise me), then that is more than a quality-of-life issue and more of a "it just doesn't work, period, for a decent number of users that would love for it to work for them."

For folks that are in the "sometimes I just wanna have a simple delay pedal with a couple knobs to be like the olden days...a Boss Waza DM-2 is well within their budgetary reach if they're running an Axe FX III.

 

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Meh, an all-in-one box is always going to be the high-impedance approach to using any one effect.

I bow to your superior condescension. Kind of surprising that HX [ … ] has any takers then. In other words, accept the status quo. There’s no way but up.

 

[Watt McCo]

I bow to your superior condescension. Kind of surprising that HX [ … ] has any takers then. In other words, accept the status quo. There’s no way but up.

The HX is, if anything, I significantly higher impedance workflow especially for delays. Change delay type/model, and your delay time/feedback/mix all change drastically and you're starting over from scratch. Where HX is more successful is in dumbing things down to the point where, regardless of the impedance of the workflow, nearly everyone is able to understand HOW to use it.

 

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The HX is, if anything, I significantly higher impedance workflow especially for delays. Change delay type/model, and your delay time/feedback/mix all change drastically and you're starting over from scratch. Where HX is more successful is in dumbing things down to the point where, regardless of the impedance of the workflow, nearly everyone is able to understand HOW to use it.

Interesting way of framing your preference. Personally I choose an effect model and work with that. But yes. Undoubtedly any HX user is a dumb schmuck. Good luck with your creed and please enjoy the last word.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I’ve been admittedly more focused on synth/keyboard stuff lately, but the difference between synth user forums and guitar forums is so night and day opposite.

Seems all the synth guys want every single parameter to have a dedicated knob and means of adjustment, no amount of controls is enough, simplified interface is a kids toy, etc etc

Then you’ve got guitar players who want it stripped down to one single knob! Don’t give me rate, depth, lfo type etc, I can’t understand that, I want to just turn one knob and rock….

I’m not saying either group is right or wrong, but just interesting how different musicians of different instruments can be……

 

[State of Epicicity]

I’ve been admittedly more focused on synth/keyboard stuff lately, but the difference between synth user forums and guitar forums is so night and day opposite.

Seems all the synth guys want every single parameter to have a dedicated knob and means of adjustment, no amount of controls is enough, simplified interface is a kids toy, etc etc

Then you’ve got guitar players who want it stripped down to one single knob! Don’t give me rate, depth, lfo type etc, I can’t understand that, I want to just turn one knob and rock….

I’m not saying either group is right or wrong, but just interesting how different musicians of different instruments can be……

That's a really interesting difference. I can totally see it.

 

[unix-guy]

I’ve been admittedly more focused on synth/keyboard stuff lately, but the difference between synth user forums and guitar forums is so night and day opposite.

Seems all the synth guys want every single parameter to have a dedicated knob and means of adjustment, no amount of controls is enough, simplified interface is a kids toy, etc etc

Then you’ve got guitar players who want it stripped down to one single knob! Don’t give me rate, depth, lfo type etc, I can’t understand that, I want to just turn one knob and rock….

I’m not saying either group is right or wrong, but just interesting how different musicians of different instruments can be……

Probably because everything about synth sounds comes down to how you tweak those things and really has since the beginning. Guitar effects started simple and dumb, and many players never learned how they really work (maybe because of lack of access to the details and fine adjustments?)

Interesting comparison!

 

[Feflicker]

I’ve been admittedly more focused on synth/keyboard stuff lately, but the difference between synth user forums and guitar forums is so night and day opposite.

Seems all the synth guys want every single parameter to have a dedicated knob and means of adjustment, no amount of controls is enough, simplified interface is a kids toy, etc etc

Then you’ve got guitar players who want it stripped down to one single knob! Don’t give me rate, depth, lfo type etc, I can’t understand that, I want to just turn one knob and rock….

I’m not saying either group is right or wrong, but just interesting how different musicians of different instruments can be……

Ive always been that way. Could never get a tone I liked with the 3 band eq on a tube amp. I love all the options. I just made a tweak to my bass preset where I split the signal and low pass that into a 8bit sounding drive, into the octave splitter, into a peq, auto wah, then a gate, then blend with the dry signal. Inventing tones only previously possible in a DAW, recording type environment. It was the 3rd idea to try and get the sound I wanted. OPTIONS. Never been a better time to find a tone from your imagination.

 

[la szum]

Haha! Dudes! Why all the spews of derogatory insinuations here? This is not about either serving the
simple and dumb guitarists, nor the presumed superiority of those who always find a way to posit
themselves in the "know better" crowd?

Can we get to a both/and world and leave all this perfect being the enemy of the good either/or
nonsense behind?

No? We can't.?? Ok.

 

[la szum]

My hunch is there are assumptions at play here that serve no useful purpose other than
making some feel superior to others in their knowledge of how to use something versus
those who are presumed to NOT know how to use something. And, in all honesty, that
assumption could very likely NOT even be the case. Some folks asking a simple question
could easily have more knowledge and expertise when it comes to "effects" under their belt
than those who are standing up on high looking down on the lowly Luddites. It happens in
life. It's possible. Just sayin'.


Again, doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. If Fractal is indeed as powerful as some are
stating, then I am going to guess it could allow space for multiple worlds/paths to co-exist
at the same time. Neither of which is superior to the other.

 

[la szum]

OPTIONS.

That's EXACTLY why I started this thread. For options. Not to remove any, but to merely
suggest the possibility of adding to them.

Not sure why the same obnoxious points are being made again, and again, and again by those
who are suggesting that a) some people are dumb and lazy and stupid and want an easy way
out, and b) those same dumb and lazy and stupid people are trying to take something away from
the smart and knowledgeable and hard-working tone sculpters here.

No matter how many times I have tried to clear the air here about that there are still those insinuating
things that were never suggested in the first place.

 

[la szum]

A lot of effects pedals are actually a combination of things, e.g. a compressor/drive/phaser/delay/reverb they call a "titan" or whatever dumb millenial sounding name I think thats the main reason you dont see a lot of what is being asked here.

None of those types pedals are in the Effects Type Blocks, though.

That is not what I was asking about in my OP. I was only inquiring about
that which already exists in the Effects Blocks.

 

[la szum]

If an Actual Tab never makes it into a Fractal product I will not be upset, disappointed,
insulted, feel aggrieved, or swear off using Fractal ever again.

I am just of the mind that an Actual Tab in the Effects Blocks for certain Types of effects,
that are modeled on actual pedals or rack units, would be a useful feature to some users.

This is not, and never was, an attempt to appease or satisfy ALL users. I am not insane!!

 

[TSJMajesty]

I'll be the first to admit that I rarely use any of the effects because the number of parameters is intimidating and I can't always hear exactly what a particular tweak is doing. I'm also not always familiar enough with parameters or the LFO sections to know how much of a tweak I need to do in order to affect the change in the effect. To this day I still have no idea why there are multiple feedback knobs in the delay block (I know, I know, RTFM...).

I stand by OP; I think an authentic tab would be wonderful. As it stands now, if I need a rotary sound, I pop in the block and just accept that the default settings are about as good as I'm going to get. But this also would go hand-in-hand with my my wish for "presets" (or whatever they would be called) in each effect block, much like certain delays have "type," where each "type" is essentially just a combination of settings, not to be confused with the blocks that have "type" where each "type" is an entirely different topology.

That's a good summation, and describes me pretty well also.

The long and the short of it is that easier access to great sounds is a win/win for everyone no matter how you look at it (well, I suppose except for the people who like that the UI and deep parameters scare some people off from the unit altogether, keeping us as a bit of an exclusive club to one degree or another...).

I don't think anyone really feels this way.

I don't think anyone's asking for skeumorphism;

Whew. I gotta look that word up!

but if I pull up a Carbon Copy, it'd be nice to just see three knobs and a switch for modulation on an "Authentic" tab. If I want to go further, then I can, but I don't have to.

Agreed.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Sigh. Maybe, when people are playing guitar and trying to be, you know; creative...THEY DON'T WANT TO READ A MANUAL.

I've tried reading the manual. But unless you came through the ranks, going from effects unit to effects unit, reading all those manuals along the way, I don't know how you'd really be able to translate what the manual says, to then knowing how to achieve a certain sound from whatever effect you're using.
For me, if I really want to learn about an effect, it's off to YT. And even there, all you get is, "I like to use X type of Reverb, and dial back X setting to...", without an explanation is to why.

 

[Justincase]

Funny how a topic can cause the narcissistic tendencies of the self absorbed to really shine through. An authentic tab for a model of a specific effect makes perfect sense. Especially since it's already done for amp models. To automatically assume someone is ignorant of all the deeper parameters and blindly berating them is really NOT constructive or helpful behavior. If that's the kind of thing that gets you off do us and yourself a favor and head over to TGP. You will feel right at home.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Just as an aside, and maybe this already exists, but I see a need here for someone to create a course of instruction on how to use guitar effects, specifically, ones with extensive, tone-shaping parameters, and perhaps even more specifically, using an actual Fractal product as the "textbook."

Take your knowledge, but also team up with someone who would be in the intended "audience," so that person could be your "sounding board", so to speak, to let you know if/when your content is completely understandable.

Use song examples... "Do you hear this flanger effect? Hear how it's really wide in this song, and in stereo, but in this song, if I hadn't bypassed it, you may not have even noticed it? Here's how we make the 2nd example start sounding like the first."

Start off by defining common terms, and what they mean, and do to the sound, and again, use song clips as examples so the listener can truly hear them in action.

And here's why I'm suggesting this: As we march forward into more and more technology-based guitar, more and more users are bound to step into a Fractal-type product, as their first foray into even using effects. Why even bother with a handful of Strymon (or whatever) effects, when for $1100 you can jump right in with an FM3? But I dare that person to simply get up to speed in knowing how to get the most out of these effects, simply by reading the manual. And watching YT videos doesn't work the way a systematic, sequenced, step-by-step course offering would. In.My.Opinion.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Interesting thing to think about with regards to effects in general is that a lot of the “definitive” examples of a given effect are from a few decades BEFORE many newer players were even born!

When I think about a flanger I think of “barracuda” or “unchained”, phasers are Isley, Waylon etc…. This was all music from a pretty long time ago, and while for some of us who grew up with it still seems fairly current, how many young adults who play guitar are still into those same references and bands and pedals ?

However, guitar marketing still seems to be recycling the same stuff, mxr/Dunlap has been doing the “authentic” Hendrix stuff for decades now, or EVH, Zac Wylde, etc.

Not knocking those artist at all, but they used them to market guitar gear to my generation.

I’d be sitting there listening to No More Tears and seeing an ad in Guitar World for the latest Zak Wilde bullseye graphic MXR chorus pedal etc….. I’m sure many of us can relate right ?

It’s decades later and they are still pushing a lot of that same gear, using the same artist……

Question is who is buying it ? Guys my/our age who still hold late 80’s/early 90s as the pinnacle of heavy guitar tones ??

Does high school today kids walk into Guitar Center and see a Dimebag camo 535q wah pedal know who he was ?

It’s like when I make a Pulp Fiction movie reference to the 20 something’s at work, many of them have no idea what I’m talking about and never even saw the movie since it was out before they were born…..

Just all and all makes me wonder…..

Maybe no one under 40 something even is buying guitar these days?