What is it with this obsessive deal with sounding JUST like . . .

I try and copy a player or tone for the same reason I whistle or hum a good song... cos I like it, you guys analyze the fun out of it.
 
jetspeed747 said:
Okay Henry, you win. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or control what is your right to freely speak. I was merely trying to be as tactful as possible in the beginning by pointing out that your original post (OP) seemed arrogant and it's offensive to some. There are quite a few people, like you, on this forum and in this world who don't emulate others tone or even make a big deal about tone. Your OP came across to me as though you assigned yourself to a very select group of people who turn their nose up at those who work hard at their craft and happen to emulate others tone. Perhaps I'm wrong and if so I apologize profusely. Much is lost in cyber translation. Hostile I will never be, not after shooting and being shot at in the desert.
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Fair enough. If you were to go back and read I never put anyone down and never criticized anyone for doing this or finding value in copping others sounds. I can find admiration in it. But I have never had the desire myself for reasons stated. I never desire to be like anyone and never desire others to be like me. I love differences. If I came off that way I apologize.

Arrogant? Could be, but I hope not. I'm good at what I do and have worked very hard for more than 40 years. I still practice 2-3 hours every day. That's practicing. If you add playing as well you'd have to tack on a few more hours. I don't see how that should make me arrogant. I love the guitar, love playing the guitar and love listening to a guitar played well. But I'm not better than anyone else. I don't believe in that. I just do the best I can do.
 
henryrobinett said:
Fair enough. If you were to go back and read I never put anyone down and never criticized anyone for doing this or finding value in copping others sounds. I can find admiration in it. But I have never had the desire myself for reasons stated. I never desire to be like anyone and never desire others to be like me. I love differences. If I came off that way I apologize.

Arrogant? Could be, but I hope not. I'm good at what I do and have worked very hard for more than 40 years. I still practice 2-3 hours every day. That's practicing. If you add playing as well you'd have to tack on a few more hours. I don't see how that should make me arrogant. I love the guitar, love playing the guitar and love listening to a guitar played well. But I'm not better than anyone else. I don't believe in that. I just do the best I can do.
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Fair enough, so I apologize for taking your post out of context. I always appreciate a musician who works as hard as you do and there is nothing wrong with confidence. I just get frustrated when I perceive anyone attacking a person(s) who are doing something that allows them to express themselves. Who cares if they are a bedroom player or world tour guitar God. Music is too beautiful for any of us to get caught up in our opinions of what someone else is doing that we might not care for. I'm sure you will agree with me as I have a little better sense of where you were coming from with this post. Again my apologies. Sometime the old mud Marine in me just won't back down :eek:ops
 
jetspeed747 said:
Okay Henry..... Your OP came across to me as though you assigned yourself to a very select group of people who turn their nose up at those who work hard at their craft and happen to emulate others tone. Perhaps I'm wrong and if so I apologize profusely. Much is lost in cyber translation.
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It's not just you. I got the same impression. Terms describing other's efforts such as "I ABSOLUTELY HATE" and "worthless" are pretty clear to me. The smiles on the faces of our audience, the applause, the fact they keep coming back year after year, and the sum of money I'm payed to continue doing it give me a different indication of what my approach is "worth".

Hate all you want. I agree with a previous post. Most guitarists (not all) I've seen in cover bands who play "their own way" and use generic tones do so because they are unwilling to spend the time or effort to get the details. I've seen a dozen rock cover bands in this city come and go over the past decade as a result. Everyone in the band plays in their own beautifully "original" and "artistic" way. Different solos, different drum fills, simplified bass lines and chord voicings, phrasing the lyrics at will. Guess what? Nobody comes. They lose the contract. End of story. Of course, they can still play the local bars along with the original music crowd. They are all great guys, having a great time. I hope the enjoy the path they have chosen as much as I enjoy mine.
 
Wow.. nine pages already? lol. Not reading through it all right now.. but, my three cents..

I sound like me. I have played gear that others sounded great with, only to find the same rig horrible for me. I have used gear that most people found to be awful (such as my Peavey Audition Chorus), but I absolutely love. All of the bands playing covers that I have been in were hired and rehired based upon reputation, bar receipts, hype, etc... balanced against how easy/difficult the band is to work with (I have known $1000/wk brawler bands that would be consistently rehired, and others that were not). I have never been able to sound like anyone else, and never cared to.

That said..
I love knowing how someone gets their tone. I love being afforded the opportunity to play through a similar rig.. for comparative reasons. Sometimes it is an effect that just makes me grin idiotly huge, and I must know what was used, especially seeing someone play live. Routing ideas, little tricks, etc. Infinite curiosity + knowledge/experience sponge. I may not even ever utilize the ideas used for someone's rig; but, I cannot count the times it provided inspiration.. productive inspiration. Simplest example? Who here has seen a live show and NOT wanted to pick up their instrument and... just noodle? Jam? Write something new?
 
steadystate - Yeah but I'm just not as interested in how many people come vs doing it right by my standards. I don't think the audience really knows. But then again I'm not really a commercial musician. Never have strived to be. It's all about the art for me. I have no problem with people who chose to cater to the audience. I still get gigs and still have people come to them.

More power to you. Seriously. But there's more than one way to do things. I'm not telling anyone what is right or wrong. Do I have a personal preference? Of course I do, as you do, as does everyone, I would hope. Do I hate hearing a cover band play subservient to the original record? I sure do. I do hate that. I admire that someone has taken the time to be a virtual copy and hold the original sacred. I mean that takes a lot of effort. I'm not interested in hearing it. Why would I? You got the original recording right there. But thats my prerogative. No skin off anyone else's teeth.

I think as long as the artist caters to the audience the worse the music will get. The audience won't know something new, fresh and original until it hears it. And as long as the artist is afraid to delve into his deep cave, his well -- as he decides he's too small to be an artist, the longer it'll be before we start hearing some new and important music.

The audience is the audience. They're there to hear and see. The artist is the artist. He's there to produce art. They're both different hats. Don't try to offend, but don't play down to either. But all that's me, not for anyone else. If the artist doesn't have the guts to go with his guts, if he can find them, then it's left to the audience to dictate. And that's not for me.
 
nikki-k said:
Wow.. nine pages already? lol. Not reading through it all right now.. but, my three cents..

I sound like me. I have played gear that others sounded great with, only to find the same rig horrible for me. I have used gear that most people found to be awful (such as my Peavey Audition Chorus), but I absolutely love. All of the bands playing covers that I have been in were hired and rehired based upon reputation, bar receipts, hype, etc... balanced against how easy/difficult the band is to work with (I have known $1000/wk brawler bands that would be consistently rehired, and others that were not). I have never been able to sound like anyone else, and never cared to.

That said..
I love knowing how someone gets their tone. I love being afforded the opportunity to play through a similar rig.. for comparative reasons. Sometimes it is an effect that just makes me grin idiotly huge, and I must know what was used, especially seeing someone play live. Routing ideas, little tricks, etc. Infinite curiosity + knowledge/experience sponge. I may not even ever utilize the ideas used for someone's rig; but, I cannot count the times it provided inspiration.. productive inspiration. Simplest example? Who here has seen a live show and NOT wanted to pick up their instrument and... just noodle? Jam? Write something new?
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+1
 
henryrobinett said:
...I think my whole take is rather unique. That doesn't mean better or worse. I listen to saxophone players, pianists and trumpet players before I listen to guitar players. Just for perspective for y'all here.
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I wouldn't say that approach is unique. I personally know one other player that does very similar. He's played guitar for quite a while and in looking for "inspiration" has turned to horn players, pianist, etc. I haven't had similar conversation with other experience players but I can hear similar approaches in their playing. I think that is a normal course that once you master guitar playing as guitar playing you look to other places to continually evolve and learn your craft. Perhaps you started there initially but I don't think the approach is unique. I'd love to get to that place but that is a long, long way off for me.
 
I was auditioning musicians for a kind of college band. We were auditioning singers and guitar players. A singer would come and I'd play guitar. Guitar player would audition, I'd sit out and listen with the other teacher. The guitar player used my same guitar and amp, neither of which were mine. I just used whatever. And I didn't set anything, just a quick eq and set distortion channel and the clean. It was one of those Fender twins with effects. One guy must've liked the sound because he was writing the settings down.

Guitar player comes to audition, using the same guitar/amp and it sounded TERRIBLE. Guitar was out of tune, he sounded weak, tone was no where. I was horrified. I turned to the other teacher and asked, "Did I sound like that??" He said, "It's really really weird. You didn't sound ANYTHING like that. It sounds like a whole different guitar and amp!"

That's when I realized, without a doubt, much more was in the hands than was commonly believed.
 
I was watching a joe bonamassa concert on tv last night and they talked about how Clapton was a major influence on him. He sounds nothing like Clapton in my opinion.
Pretty cool though. Amazing player.
 
BTW I might be using the wrong word. I don't mean unique in the sense that no one has ever done this before. I mean it's unusual. Not the regular way things are done. Yes there are a lot of jazz guitar players who do this. The guitar isn't the source for jazz. Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Monk, Coltrane, Herbie Hancock were sources. They changed the course of jazz music as we know it. Few if any guitar players have done this. So I always figured I'd listen to the source.
 
henryrobinett said:
BTW I might be using the wrong word. I don't mean unique in the sense that no one has ever done this before. I mean it's unusual. Not the regular way things are done. Yes there are a lot of jazz guitar players who do this. The guitar isn't the source for jazz. Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Monk, Coltrane, Herbie Hancock were sources. They changed the course of jazz music as we know it. Few if any guitar players have done this. So I always figured I'd listen to the source.
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With the exception of Django Rienhardt, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery...
 
Naw. I just don't figure those guys as the guys who were the source. They didn't create it. The certainly were there and contributed and played the guitar in that fashion. But Charlie Parker CREATED bebop with Monk, Bud Powell, ad Dizzy Gillespie. Coltrane created those styles with his special changes and sheets of sound and modal stuff in the fashion he did. McCoy Tyner created those modal quartal comping things. Lester Young created that swing thing. Tatum. Guitar players copied and applied, but they didn't innovate.

If I want to learn a style it's best to listen the source, like Wes and Edie Lang and Pass, Christian, Django did. Those lines and changes, neighbors around the 3rds 7ths flat 5s, b9ths, altered tones. The form of the music took place regardless of the presence of guitar players.
 
Wow, ten pages! You and I walk into a bar with a band playing ,I think the guitarist is a great player ,but his tone sucks ,you think he's a terrible player with a good tone.Guess we agree to disagree. Been playing along time. Trying to copy a favorite guitarist tone is fun and frustrating. And what are we trying to copy ,a studio recording mixed with other instruments.With my ultra there is only a few amps that give me my tone and if I try other amps, I,m always trying to get the same tone. My tone.Doesn't matter what I play thought ,I try to get that tone thats in my head:D
 
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