Tone Matching an Amp

[GuitarDojo]

The problem is this is a product designed a GUITAR PLAYERS. Some of the most self possessed, nerdy, stuck in perpetual adolescence, spoiled, people of all time! OK, OK! I'm only HALF kidding!!!!

You forgot .."Right of Entitlement"

 

[Artic Myst]

But since this actually hasn't happened yet, everything is still okay.

Richard

And that's why it is a question. Probably I am not the only one thinking about this.

 

[henryrobinett]

And that's why it is a question. Probably I am not the only one thinking about this.

But no one can answer this but Cliff! And I don't think he's going to until it's released. All these speculative questions and opinions are nutty. NDA restricts those who know from speaking. T^here are reasons why NDA exists.

 

[Artic Myst]

Man! Nothing like worrying before you have it. Worry and fear based on almost nothing. Come on guys! Apply a little patience.

I prefer to ask questions or make suggestions now that they are receiving input from us while in development than to complain later when it is too late and probably more difficult to do. It will be always up to them to do it in way or the other but since they are a company that listen to their customers and the proof is that they are adding these new features, what's wrong with giving feedback/comments about it?

 

[Artic Myst]

But no one can answer this but Cliff! And I don't think he's going to until it's released. All these speculative questions and opinions are nutty. NDA restricts those who know from speaking. T^here are reasons why NDA exists.

I see they are answering questions and giving information about it. I guess that's the whole point of creating this threads. Receive customers feedback.

 

[henryrobinett]

OK, sorry. Yes, after being dogged and hounded Cliff has relented in some instances. Obviously they have answered SOME questions. Yes it is feedback, which I'm sure is one of the reasons Cliff let some snippets out. But he didn't provide a lot of detail. He's a smart guy. I'm sure he gave out information he was comfortable giving out.

 

[willowdale]

Something else I am afraid of is, if the modeling is not yet perfect and needs more improvements in later firmware releases, will that affect how my patches using tone matching sound? Because that would really suck. If I invest quite sometime to match a tone and I get it perfect I would not like that to be altered by just upgrading the firmware.

Until the Axe-II reaches its 'Axe-Ultra 11.0' firmware endgame, the change in tones from each firmware modeling 'upgrade' is impossible to avoid. Always some pain with progress for sure.

 

[steadystate]

If you want an exact spectral match, this isn't the product for you. Well, you can do it but you have to use the synth block and generate test tones, etc. The idea is to get the basic flavor of the sound. You can then go from there. With a little practice you can get very close matches. It requires some user interaction. With time you learn the nuances of how to achieve a better match. Playing certain things helps the analyzer get better results.

We give you the creative tools. You then explore...

This post says it all. I don't expect any box to magically copy a tone to the point where I can't perceive a difference. The Kemper doesn't. The clip at the beginning of this tread consists of two tones that are obviously different, but similar enough such that one can be worked to sound virtually identical to the other.

Currently, I'm using an Ultra with no user IRs. I spend an enormous amount of time experimenting with the stock IRs to get target tones. Even if "amp matching" means manually choosing the appropriate amp block and settings, just having the "tone match" block essentially eliminates the huge task of IR selection and blending. I'd fully expect to need to fine-tune the result, as I would with any eq match program.

To the community: I'm as supportive as all those who think the demo clips are identical. But it is clear to me that "identical clips" to one listener can sound substantially different to another. To say that you clearly hear a difference is not a criticism, especially in light of the above quoted post. If and when I buy a II, I will certainly use this new tool as a starting point in the recreation of tones. It will provide a starting point much closer to the destination than I currently enjoy.

If I played golf, I wouldn't mind a tool that could get me a few feet from the hole on the first swing...every time.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Does it bring something else besides the improvement in the amp modeling that Cliff mentioned? Like something new that is directly related to the dynamics and distortion in relation to the tone matching block?

I also think it is better having everything as automatized as possible. If the tone matching process could detect and capture the dynamics and distortion that would be so much better. Then we could always adjust to taste afterwards.

Something else I am afraid of is, if the modeling is not yet perfect and needs more improvements in later firmware releases, will that affect how my patches using tone matching sound? Because that would really suck. If I invest quite sometime to match a tone and I get it perfect I would not like that to be altered by just upgrading the firmware.

Nothing ever rests on it's laurels with the Fractal gear while the platform is under development. Nothing is perfect, not modeling or tube amps or anything. Otherwise, they'd stop making new tube amps. They are perfect... right? (Just playing with the straw man fallacy you put out). No modeling is not perfect and frankly, it never will be. Neither are tube amps. Far from perfect and proud of it.

Plenty of folks find their tones and then stop loading up firmware updates. Nothing wrong with that.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

People gloss over or forget that it is easy to back up all your presets as-is; load in new firmware, have a go with it for a spell and then decide. It's easy to then downgrade your firmware, and restore your saved presets.

 

[steadystate]

Which one is the real amp?

FWIW, I prefer the second tone.

 

[hoth]

I think people need to take a step back and think about why they bought the AxeFX II and the advantages of it over other pieces of gear, rather than expecting it to work and do exactly what that other gear does. There are advantages to the way that Cliff is going about this over other similar offerings.

Once you have your tone matched and overlayed onto an amp model that is the near perfect model of the amp, you then have the flexibility to tweak away from that one sweat spot tone that you matched. You alread have all the dynamics you need modeled in the axe! Other gear, for the most part, only really gives you that sweat spot tone and you get problems when you move far from that. So instead of trying to make the axe into some other product, get to know the benefits of the axe itself. And if that doesn't work for you, feel free to get that other product. No one here will bat an eyelash.

 

[Artic Myst]

Nothing ever rests on it's laurels with the Fractal gear while the platform is under development. Nothing is perfect, not modeling or tube amps or anything. Otherwise, they'd stop making new tube amps. They are perfect... right? (Just playing with the straw man fallacy you put out). No modeling is not perfect and frankly, it never will be. Neither are tube amps. Far from perfect and proud of it.

Plenty of folks find their tones and then stop loading up firmware updates. Nothing wrong with that.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

People gloss over or forget that it is easy to back up all your presets as-is; load in new firmware, have a go with it for a spell and then decide. It's easy to then downgrade your firmware, and restore your saved presets.

Well a tube amp might not be perfect but it sounds 100% (perfect) as tube amp since that's what it is. The reasons why they keep creating new amps have nothing to do with that since an amp always sounds like amp.

Since the Axe Fx model amps I guess that main goal is to get it as accurate or perfect as possible when compared to the real amps. Also unlike you I do believe that perfection in this case is possible or at least as close to perfection that us (humans) cannot discern one from the other.

The problem with not upgrading or going back as is suggested in numerous occasions is that just miss everything else that the Axe Fx will offer, such new effects, new features and new amp models. I understand that until now if you created a patch and the modeling changed/improved that affected how it sounds and you had no choice but to rework it. My concern/question here is if the tone matched patches will also be affected by this in the same manner. If I invest my time to match a considerable amount of amps or tones to make it as accurate (or perfect) as possible will I be forced at some point to choose between upgrading/augmenting my Axe FX features, amp models and effects or having to redo my previous work. I think it is a valid concern.

I'll give you a couple of examples. Imagine a studio or producer that builds a library of artist matching tones patches for different songs providing A/B comparison clips and makes them available. Will those need to be reworked and updated in future releases so they sound the same way?

Another example would be an artist recording at different studios that have the Axe Fx. This artist has an Axe at his place and tone matches several of his amps. Now consider those studios having different firmware versions in their Axe Fx. Will the artist be able to bring just his patches from home and sound the same everywhere or will the studios need to put the same firmware version the artist used when he created the patches?

 

[kfliegner]

Yes, with each FW upgrade one potentially faces the choice between consistency and improvement.

Personally, I'm looking for a tube amp that perfectly models the Axe-Fx.

 

[willowdale]

The problem with not upgrading or going back as is suggested in numerous occasions is that just miss everything else that the Axe Fx will offer, such new effects, new features and new amp models. I understand that until now if you created a patch and the modeling changed/improved that affected how it sounds and you had no choice but to rework it. My concern/question here is if the tone matched patches will also be affected by this in the same manner. If I invest my time to match a considerable amount of amps or tones to make it as accurate (or perfect) as possible will I be forced at some point to choose between upgrading/augmenting my Axe FX features, amp models and effects or having to redo my previous work. I think it is a valid concern.

Yes it is a valid concern, but there is an obvious answer. Your normal patches or tone matched patches will always be tonally changed and need adjusting anytime you upgrade to a new modelling 'improving' FW update. Duh!!

Can this be frustrating? Yes!! Is there anything that can be done to stop this? Nope, not until the Axe-II stops "improving"!!

 

[barhrecords]

Well a tube amp might not be perfect but it sounds 100% (perfect) as tube amp since that's what it is. The reasons why they keep creating new amps have nothing to do with that since an amp always sounds like amp.

Since the Axe Fx model amps I guess that main goal is to get it as accurate or perfect as possible when compared to the real amps. Also unlike you I do believe that perfection in this case is possible or at least as close to perfection that us (humans) cannot discern one from the other.

The problem with not upgrading or going back as is suggested in numerous occasions is that just miss everything else that the Axe Fx will offer, such new effects, new features and new amp models. I understand that until now if you created a patch and the modeling changed/improved that affected how it sounds and you had no choice but to rework it. My concern/question here is if the tone matched patches will also be affected by this in the same manner. If I invest my time to match a considerable amount of amps or tones to make it as accurate (or perfect) as possible will I be forced at some point to choose between upgrading/augmenting my Axe FX features, amp models and effects or having to redo my previous work. I think it is a valid concern.

I'll give you a couple of examples. Imagine a studio or producer that builds a library of artist matching tones patches for different songs providing A/B comparison clips and makes them available. Will those need to be reworked and updated in future releases so they sound the same way?

Another example would be an artist recording at different studios that have the Axe Fx. This artist has an Axe at his place and tone matches several of his amps. Now consider those studios having different firmware versions in their Axe Fx. Will the artist be able to bring just his patches from home and sound the same everywhere or will the studios need to put the same firmware version the artist used when he created the patches?

A couple of things seems like shenanigins to me.

1. You have a low post count.
2. You are fear mongering by bringing up an old gripe about having to tweak the AxeFx. That one has been griped about ad-nauseum.
3. Your posts are longish. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad. But IMO, negative posts that are longish, are suspicious.

I agree with Scott, your concerns appear to be a straw man to me also.

Richard

 

[billmeedog]

"I always wanted to fix one-a-dem trans-miss-showns!"

You could perhaps add this feature to the match block in a future release. Not for me but for people who don't know how to do it.

That's very thoughtful of you to consider the wants & needs of us "dumb folk" who don't know anything about tone/eq-matching. What a swell guy!

Thanks!

Bill

 

[Artic Myst]

A couple of things seems like shenanigins to me.

1. You have a low post count.
2. You are fear mongering by bringing up an old gripe about having to tweak the AxeFx. That one has been griped about ad-nauseum.
3. Your posts are longish. That in and of itself is not necessarily bad. But IMO, negative posts that are longish, are suspicious.

I agree with Scott, your concerns appear to be a straw man to me also.

Richard

That's funny. It seems that every time somebody asks certain questions or raise some concerns in forums owned by the product company, somebody believes there must be some hidden agenda. I never understood that but I guess some people take this as religion when it is only gear.

1,3. Should I just post about anything just to increase my post counter then? My posts are as long or short as I consider necessary. I prefer to take the time and write a detailed post to answer someone or ask a question that covers all the points instead of writing dozens of posts. In this case I was answering to Scott.

2. I am talking specifically about the new feature of tone matching. It is just my opinion, but I believe it would defeat its purpose for me if the tone of the patches I do with tone matching change over time by just upgrading the firmware. I don't have a problem with that happening in regular patches since when I create one I am not trying to match anything.

 

[hoth]

That's funny. It seems that every time somebody asks certain questions or raise some concerns in forums owned by the product company, somebody believes there must be some hidden agenda. I never understood that but I guess some people take this as religion when it is only gear.

1,3. Should I just post about anything just to increase my post counter then? My posts are as long or short as I consider necessary. I prefer to take the time and write a detailed post to answer someone or ask a question that covers all the points instead of writing dozens of posts. In this case I was answering to Scott.

2. I am talking specifically about the new feature of tone matching. It is just my opinion, but I believe it would defeat its purpose for me if the tone of the patches I do with tone matching change over time by just upgrading the firmware. I don't have a problem with that happening in regular patches since when I create one I am not trying to match anything.

It seems that the majority of your posts are negative. So just like in real life, I wonder about the motivations of someone who comes to dinner only to criticize the host's food and decorations. If you own an AxeII, then you can just not use the tone matching features if you think they will not work for you. If you do not own one, then you seem quite negative on it already and you should likely move to something else that more closely matches your sensibilites. Most of the members of this forum are excited by a robust argument regarding the more nerdy and esoteric aspects of music technology. It is, however, when you feel your time is being wasted chasing windmills that a red flag pops up.

 

[MikeyB59]

.

Since the Axe Fx model amps I guess that main goal is to get it as accurate or perfect as possible when compared to the real amps. Also unlike you I do believe that perfection in this case is possible or at least as close to perfection that us (humans) cannot discern one from the other.

I sure as hell don't want to wait until it's perfect to get tone matching. If it's as important to you as you say, it's simple as can be to save your tone matched presets along with the firmware file and load them in when your job requires it. The whole process will take far less time to load than it would take to manually tone match one sound.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Well a tube amp might not be perfect but it sounds 100% (perfect) as tube amp since that's what it is. The reasons why they keep creating new amps have nothing to do with that since an amp always sounds like amp.

Since the Axe Fx model amps I guess that main goal is to get it as accurate or perfect as possible when compared to the real amps. Also unlike you I do believe that perfection in this case is possible or at least as close to perfection that us (humans) cannot discern one from the other.

The problem with not upgrading or going back as is suggested in numerous occasions is that just miss everything else that the Axe Fx will offer, such new effects, new features and new amp models. I understand that until now if you created a patch and the modeling changed/improved that affected how it sounds and you had no choice but to rework it. My concern/question here is if the tone matched patches will also be affected by this in the same manner. If I invest my time to match a considerable amount of amps or tones to make it as accurate (or perfect) as possible will I be forced at some point to choose between upgrading/augmenting my Axe FX features, amp models and effects or having to redo my previous work. I think it is a valid concern.

I'll give you a couple of examples. Imagine a studio or producer that builds a library of artist matching tones patches for different songs providing A/B comparison clips and makes them available. Will those need to be reworked and updated in future releases so they sound the same way?

Another example would be an artist recording at different studios that have the Axe Fx. This artist has an Axe at his place and tone matches several of his amps. Now consider those studios having different firmware versions in their Axe Fx. Will the artist be able to bring just his patches from home and sound the same everywhere or will the studios need to put the same firmware version the artist used when he created the patches?

You'd bundle the firmware and the presets and load them into any Axe-FX similar to the one you did them on (Standard/Ultra/II). Not rocket science. They'll sound exactly the same. Don't forget to also back up your user cabs (if you used any) and system backup too.

It is a tremendous asset to owning this box. He does not stop advancing his modeling because does not stop advancing his modeling algorithms. He develops them as far as the hardware platform allows him in regards to capacity, memory and processing power.

If that's a bother to you, then as I've pointed out dozens (if not more) times - you can upgrade the firmware and play with it to see if you like it better for as long as you like. At any time - assuming you are smart enough to keep back ups of your presets - you can revert back to a prior firmware should you ever desire and restore your presets whenever you like.

Since you keep driving the point, I'll drive mine. If you are specific presets that you must save for reference or to use at a future date - then you save the presets and firmware as a bundle and you can then restore them - EXACTLY like they sounded originally - at any time. NO matter what firmware development the future holds.