Taming the Monster - Leveling Presets Video with the Axe-FX II

Scott Peterson said:
greiswig,

I set the cleans first. I look for the 'middle' value of the range on the db meter. I then do the same with the OD tones, looking for the *middle* of the range of spl db levels - not the transients. Just the 'mean' average of the range. That's the key. Not peaks.

I use the Matt Picone global boost for solos - 111 midi value for the "Boost" cc, then 127 midi value for the 'boost'. You actually are attenuating your output and then just un-attenuating it for the 'boost' so you never hit red and I've found his values are perfect. I have measured about an average of +6db boost using his suggestion. Search "Using Boosts" thread I started long ago and see the "Matman" post there.
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Not quite what I meant, Scott, but thanks: what I meant was, do you find it useful to have clean and OD sounds at identical levels, or do you set one up differently because of the different dynamics available in each? I've got my own take on it, but I'd like to hear yours.

+3-6db is about where I like to have my boost, too, so that's good to hear.
 
greiswig said:
Not quite what I meant, Scott, but thanks: what I meant was, do you find it useful to have clean and OD sounds at identical levels, or do you set one up differently because of the different dynamics available in each? I've got my own take on it, but I'd like to hear yours.

+3-6db is about where I like to have my boost, too, so that's good to hear.
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The perception of 'even' volume output is what I am after. The transients when muted 'chugga-chugga' exceed what happens with the dynamic range of my cleans if we are discussing peaks. My OD sounds vary - dependent on the output of each amp block and varies by my personal drive vs. MV settings - but -10db is where most of my presets end up with the latest firmware (v6.0c as I type this).
 
@Scott: I think greiswig is asking whether you go for identical average meter readings for every preset.
 
Rex said:
@Scott: I think greiswig is asking whether you go for identical average meter readings for every preset.
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No, no 2 presets ever end up anything alike at all. depending of course on the amount of drive and the amount of master volume per each amp but all of them are so different. just like in the real world with real analog amps.
 
Rex said:
@Scott: I think greiswig is asking whether you go for identical average meter readings for every preset.
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Yup. Thanks for the clarification, Rex. For me, I tend to end up struggling with balancing cleans versus overdrive, partly because generally for cleans I'm on one of the out-of-phase pickup settings, versus single p'ups for OD sounds. I tend to run the cleans on my amp up to where they actually seem a little quieter than the OD sounds, but their peaks jump out more because there is so much compression on OD sounds.
 
Okay, something is getting lost in translation. For one thing, I went back to the start of this useful thread, and found this:
Scott Peterson said:
This is my process for balancing the output of different presets across the range of gain from the cleanest to the loudest OD.
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...which seems to kind of answer my question. The implication is that you "balance output" with a db meter from clean to OD. So set the output to 100db on a system on an OD sound, and try to get 100db also on cleans. Then a bump of 6db for leads.

But then...

Scott Peterson said:
No, no 2 presets ever end up anything alike at all. depending of course on the amount of drive and the amount of master volume per each amp but all of them are so different. just like in the real world with real analog amps.
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?? No two presets alike? I must be missing something, amigo! ;-)
 
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Scott Peterson said:
No, no 2 presets ever end up anything alike at all. depending of course on the amount of drive and the amount of master volume per each amp but all of them are so different. just like in the real world with real analog amps.
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A translation thingy again, I think. :)

I gathered from your video that you do shoot for the same meter reading across all your patches. I thought that was the whole point—matching average output levels across your patches. If that's not the case, I need to erase my mental tape and have another look at your video.
 
Rex said:
A translation thingy again, I think. :)

I gathered from your video that you do shoot for the same meter reading across all your patches. I thought that was the whole point—matching average output levels across your patches. If that's not the case, I need to erase my mental tape and have another look at your video.
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Have another look.

I try to match the middle of the range each preset makes. For instance, if my clean 'baseline' preset is outputting 110db-120db... with strumming; the way I'd use that preset... then the median value is 115db. I then try to range my heavier tones that might go from 103db - 125db with transients (chugga chugga) hitting the top of the range, but the middle falling around 114-115db so that the perception is similar output levels; but that's the perception only.

In essence I am creating a 'reality' where the FOH mixer soundman does not need to ride levels on me. It's set it and forget it for him. I am completely focused on making his job working with me as simple and hassle free as possible.

Does that make it clearer? You want the median value to match. Not the peaks. Use the preset the way you play the preset.
 
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That's the way I heard it on the video—leveling patches so the middle of their range is equal across patches. I'm not sure how that differs from what I posted ("matching average output levels across your patches"), but I'm pretty confident we're on the same page.

Thanks, Scott.
 
Scott Peterson said:
I try to match the middle of the range each preset makes. For instance, if my clean 'baseline' preset is outputting 110db-120db... with strumming; the way I'd use that preset... then the median value is 115db. I then try to range my heavier tones that might go from 103db - 125db with transients (chugga chugga) hitting the top of the range, but the middle falling around 114-115db so that the perception is similar output levels; but that's the perception only.
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That helps me understand what you're doing, for sure. It explains why the dynamic differences between clean and OD tones don't affect what you're doing much: the dynamics affect the peaks, not the mean.

I was doing something kind of like this, but less formally. I was trying to pick at medium intensity, and using that as my evaluation. It gives me a little bit of headroom left in the presets to let the guitar part bark a bit. Thanks for the discussion!
 
I tend to use a pretty wide variety of sounds. One thing I notice is that, even after using your method here, some sounds "sound" louder than others. Suppose I level two different presets on C-weighting. One is an ODS with fairly heavy overdrive, the other is a Matchless with mild overdrive...enough to where you can definitely hear the distortion, but not nearly as much distortion/clipping as the ODS.

To my ear, the Matchless will end up sounding louder overall. I think it is partly because of the focus on midrange content that the Matchless has, and also because the transients for the Matchless hit higher because they are less clipped.

The same thing should happen for clean sounds, too, I would guess. I'm wondering if others experience this, and if they've come up with a "rule of thumb" to get around it, like "mild overdrive needs about 2db less than full-on overdrive, and clean sounds need about 3-4db less than full-on OD."
 
IMO Scott's taming theory is spot on. I tried this and got all my presets in the 110db range. It's just a matter to keep ur presets leveled as a whole. I think we all know that our "perception" of our presets will be heard differently by everyone. I sit down Scott and my grandma in front of my ii and I guarantee u although both at 110db my grandma will say the clean sounds beautiful but my solo preset is way to loud. We all do it. At least this keep u even across the board so ur free from clip and are best equipped to add dynamics to your playing with use of ur vol on guitar & vol via exp ped.
 
Remember that the final judge on all this beyond measurements and SPL is your ear. The measurements and process gets you in the ballpark. I find that I don't have to do any refinements because I know now where I need to set things in relation to other things volume wise.

redburst21 - if you sit your grandma down in front of your cab at +110db she'll either kill you or run away... or both! LOL. :D
 
Scott Peterson said:
(SNIP)I don't have to do any refinements because I know now where I need to set things in relation to other things volume wise.
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Thanks, Scott...I guess it's that "where to set things in relation to other things" aspect of what you do that I'm wondering about. But maybe it's so intuitive/obvious to you in your own process that it's hard to explain.
 
greiswig said:
Thanks, Scott...I guess it's that "where to set things in relation to other things" aspect of what you do that I'm wondering about. But maybe it's so intuitive/obvious to you in your own process that it's hard to explain.
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I hear what you're saying. The way I read Scott's last post is, "Trust your ears. I only have to set levels once because I know how I need to fudge what the meter is telling me."
 
Scott Peterson said:
Remember that the final judge on all this beyond measurements and SPL is your ear. The measurements and process gets you in the ballpark. I find that I don't have to do any refinements because I know now where I need to set things in relation to other things volume wise.

redburst21 - if you sit your grandma down in front of your cab at +110db she'll either kill you or run away... or both! LOL. :D
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Now that's funny!
 
greiswig said:
Thanks, Scott...I guess it's that "where to set things in relation to other things" aspect of what you do that I'm wondering about. But maybe it's so intuitive/obvious to you in your own process that it's hard to explain.
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Rex said:
I hear what you're saying. The way I read Scott's last post is, "Trust your ears. I only have to set levels once because I know how I need to fudge what the meter is telling me."
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The final judge on these things - all these things - are our ears. We have to train them.

I know to fudge my Vox and Fender presets louder because I play them in a different manner - I either strum lighter or pick. So when compared to the hamfisted 'chugga chugga' and very hard picked stuff I do on more compressed OD tones.... I know what to do because I have trained my ear to do it.

It goes back to my statement that you need to play your preset in the manner and style you really use it in order to balance it's output. Use the gauges and SPL meters to get you close and your ears as the final check point.

You will get better and faster at it once you've done it a few times because the whole time you are training your ear using the different tools.
 
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