side topic from Cliff's interview

[vAmp]

It’s not magic. But unfortunately some people can’t get around that fact. They think that there’s something magical happening there and there actually isn’t. All the principles are very well understood now.

That one I tend to disagree with. I've seen enough stuff demonstrated (on video) from "free energy" circles that clearly seem to prove electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks. People like John Bedini (who also used to make very special Hi-fi amps, I believe; don't know just how special though).
Also Peter Lindemann IMO is proving with measuring devices in one of his videos where stuff doesn't follow the book anymore.
These two I'd still consider credible among these dubious circles.

OK, you can still do remarkable things by going by the book, which is a "workable" theory, as Cliff is proving.
Unless with his army background he is already familiar with it and modelling these aberrations
If not, it could be the last missing factor, if in the end one would stay present.
OTOH, it might not make any discernable difference for our purposes.
I'll always be wondering about it. I sure feel Cliff should meet with Bedini!

 

[Rex]

It’s not magic. But unfortunately some people can’t get around that fact. They think that there’s something magical happening there and there actually isn’t. All the principles are very well understood now.

That one I tend to disagree with. I've seen enough stuff demonstrated (on video) from "free energy" circles that clearly seem to prove electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks. People like John Bedini (who also used to make very special Hi-fi amps, I believe; don't know just how special though).
Also Peter Lindemann IMO is proving with measuring devices in one of his videos where stuff doesn't follow the book anymore.

I have to agree wih Cliff on this one. I've seen videos and written material from Mr. Bedini, Mr. Lindemann and other free energy folks, and you're right: they seem to prove that electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks, without actually proving it. They demonstrate to "believers" with limited technical knowledge, and they avoid critical audiences or expert review. Every piece of electronics purchased over the last hundred years has been based on well-understood pricipals as described by Cliff. The free energy movement has been around just as long, and they have yet to market a single product. They'd have you believe it's a conspiracy, but if this stuff were real, the big companies would be all over it.

As Cliff says, there's no magic—but guitarists don't willingly let go of their tone-religion.

 

[Xrocker]

That one I tend to disagree with. I've seen enough stuff demonstrated (on video) from "free energy" circles that clearly seem to prove electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks. People like John Bedini (who also used to make very special Hi-fi amps, I believe; don't know just how special though).
Also Peter Lindemann IMO is proving with measuring devices in one of his videos where stuff doesn't follow the book anymore.
These two I'd still consider credible among these dubious circles.

OK, you can still do remarkable things by going by the book, which is a "workable" theory, as Cliff is proving.
Unless with his army background he is already familiar with it and modelling these aberrations
If not, it could be the last missing factor, if in the end one would stay present.
OTOH, it might not make any discernable difference for our purposes.
I'll always be wondering about it. I sure feel Cliff should meet with Bedini!

If someone else can't duplicate the experiment and repeat the results with a double blind test it ain't science.

 

[FractalAudio]

That one I tend to disagree with. I've seen enough stuff demonstrated (on video) from "free energy" circles that clearly seem to prove electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks. People like John Bedini (who also used to make very special Hi-fi amps, I believe; don't know just how special though).
Also Peter Lindemann IMO is proving with measuring devices in one of his videos where stuff doesn't follow the book anymore.
These two I'd still consider credible among these dubious circles.

OK, you can still do remarkable things by going by the book, which is a "workable" theory, as Cliff is proving.
Unless with his army background he is already familiar with it and modelling these aberrations
If not, it could be the last missing factor, if in the end one would stay present.
OTOH, it might not make any discernable difference for our purposes.
I'll always be wondering about it. I sure feel Cliff should meet with Bedini!

 

[vAmp]

Sorry, but that's a cheap shot and completely ignorant, unless you've studied it more than a few weeks and can disprove how eg Lindemann fails to prove it does not go by the book.
It's easy to read the first quackwatch article etc. and dismiss stuff because you have blind faith in official science outlets (that often have their own agenda).
As good as they can be, they are often just part of the whole story (esp. in medicine, which is rather unscientific).
It's a strong point to master the science from the book, but a weak point to be closed minded about stuff where sth clearly is going on.

Do you also take stomach acid reducing drugs, or do you realize the cause is actually a lack of hydrochloric acid and completely the wrong way to go?
I guess you're not even interested and that's your weak point. Still room for growth on all levels, we'll have to say ;-)
With all due respect, contrary to your pic.

 

[FractalAudio]

Relax Francis. It was joke.

 

[vAmp]

You should take it seriously. I'm not basing my opinion on 2 weeks or even 2 months of research.
If you can debunk these guys, no problem. I know there's lots of disinfo around and the rabbit hole is deep.

There is even more. You should prepare a golden foil hat
It's called "Geluid dat niet mag - Henry van der Heide" ["Sound that is forbidden"]
It's about a sound system where you can stand before one of the speakers (or anywhere), but you'll still hear the sound as coming from everywhere, like you're actually there (in nature, on a stage with musicians, etc.)
Sadly, it's too much to translate.
I believe you can still go listen at the inventor's place in Holland and somewhere where guys have figured it out but are not telling the technology. Maybe Yek can check it out for us with a Fractal Foil hat
Not by the book, but all good potential Fractal stuff, unless you dismiss everything out of hand... ;-)


Some links for the Dutch speaking interested:
http://www.daanspeak.com/Media02.html
http://www.nulpuntenergie.net/index.php/geluid-en-frequenties/50-geluid-dat-niet-mag
http://www.dhtrob.com/overige/geluid_dat_niet_mag.shtml
http://www.vrijeenergiemachine.nl/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=98#p272

 

[shantustarsun]

This thread took a weird turn...

 

[mark_melling]

This thread took a weird turn...

They usually do!!

 

[viabcroce]

I have to agree wih Cliff on this one. I've seen videos and written material from Mr. Bedini, Mr. Lindemann and other free energy folks, and you're right: they seem to prove that electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks, without actually proving it. They demonstrate to "believers" with limited technical knowledge, and they avoid critical audiences or expert review. Every piece of electronics purchased over the last hundred years has been based on well-understood pricipals as described by Cliff. The free energy movement has been around just as long, and they have yet to market a single product. They'd have you believe it's a conspiracy, but if this stuff were real, the big companies would be all over it.

As Cliff says, there's no magic—but guitarists don't willingly let go of their tone-religion.

Well, I do not know anything about free energy. Nevertheless there's something in vAmp's post that made me think.
If it's probably true that "all the principles are very well understood now", as Mr. Chase wrote, we'll have to agree that perhaps what's missing is the ultimate way to implement them. And this is probably the only reason why Axe-Fx II (and other modellers as well) is getting better and better with the newer firmware: because there's still room for improvements.

 

[vAmp]

I'm just giving 2 potential gems of clues to set Fractal above anything for all time (not that I'm afraid the way it's going )

I'm just saying that if you study some of these working "free energy" [over-unity rather] projects just a bit, you'll discover that some kind of electricity is not moving in the direction or even where it says in our textbooks. They are putting capacitors "the wrong way round" for a good reason or showing that a big part of electricity is running on the outside along the cable, ...
I'm just suspecting this could be a major clue with regard to modelling tubes & stuff (if ever considered as "not yet there" at some point, it would be something to look into IMO).
My thanks is to be shot down...

 

[vAmp]

I have to agree wih Cliff on this one. I've seen videos and written material from Mr. Bedini, Mr. Lindemann and other free energy folks, and you're right: they seem to prove that electricity is not wholly running like in the textbooks, without actually proving it.

I "believe" there are kits for Bedini's famous "Schoolgirl Motor" project for everyone to see working. OTOH, as layman we can't say if energies are running where they claim them to be etc. (maybe we can, I didn't go that deep into it).
Have you seen Electrical Motor Secrets 1 by Lindemann? He takes all kinds of meters and shows you where something is clearly not following the books anymore (no, I haven't replicated it).

They demonstrate to "believers" with limited technical knowledge, and they avoid critical audiences or expert review.

I disagree, esp. these days. If you follow the scene, stuff is happening (I don't follow it that hard atm)
And you can make some projects yourself (talking about over-unity).

Every piece of electronics purchased over the last hundred years has been based on well-understood pricipals as described by Cliff.

Sure, but it's only part of the story and very unefficient (a lot of energy gets converted to heat).

The free energy movement has been around just as long, and they have yet to market a single product. They'd have you believe it's a conspiracy, but if this stuff were real, the big companies would be all over it.

They *are* all over it, that's why nobody dares to market a device.
1) they would have no more electricity to sell
2) a big form of control over people is lost ("power" to the people is not sth "they" like!)
3) who says it would be a healthy situation anyway? Maybe we would be tapping other kinds of fields we'd be regretting later
4) even I wouldn't like that everyone would have "free energy" and be doing the most crazy things with it, which alone is reason enough to keep the lid on
And "they" probably have had it in secret for eons.
If on the contrary "they" would help out, we could more quickly get to working models.

I've seen evidence/indications that e.g. Bedini's Yahoo forum is infiltrated by "agents" that come to murky up the waters (which I would expect).
Therefore it's easy to dismiss everything by those who won't spend the time and base their opinions on 2 paragraphs of an article :|

 

[viabcroce]

if you study some of these working "free energy" [over-unity rather] projects just a bit, you'll discover that some kind of electricity is not moving in the direction or even where it says in our textbooks. They are putting capacitors "the wrong way round" for a good reason or showing that a big part of electricity is running on the outside along the cable, ...
I'm just suspecting this could be a major clue with regard to modelling tubes & stuff (if ever considered as "not yet there" at some point, it would be something to look into IMO).
My thanks is to be shot down...

Well, when I was a kid they taught me electrons were like little balls running into a pipe. At the university (early '80) they started talking of gaps (sorry, not sure about the correct term here. We used to call them lacunas) moving against the apparent electricity macroscopic flowing (IOW, it was not electrons moving towards the user but rather positive charges moving counterflow).
I believe we all have to admit that models (I mean scientific interpretations of how things work in nature) are nothing but efforts to reasonably describe things we don't really fully understand yet.

 

[vAmp]

 

[Rex]

Have you seen Electrical Motor Secrets 1 by Lindemann? He takes all kinds of meters and shows you where something is clearly not following the books anymore (no, I haven't replicated it).

Yes, I've seen that video. His main point was the reduced current draw when he inserted a light bulb into the circuit. What he didn't tell you is that when you use a light bulb to replace a dead short, you're actually reducing the load. Reduced load gives reduced current. But if you use lots of meters, most people will assume you're right. (In video 2, he freely admits that it's a less-than-unity device.)

They *are* all over it, that's why nobody dares to market a device.
1) they would have no more electricity to sell

Yamaha and General Motors don't sell electricity. Those are just two of the thousands of companies that would be milking this technology for all they could, if the technology actually worked.

2) a big form of control over people is lost ("power" to the people is not sth "they" like!)

They don't want control over you; they want your money. If this stuff were real, they'd use it to get your money.


Sorry for the huge derail. Back on topic:

What Cliff was saying is that the effects of tube amps on audio signals and on the human ear are well known and can be replicated, though many won't believe that.

 

[viabcroce]

Yamaha and General Motors don't sell electricity. Those are just two of the thousands of companies that would be milking this technology for all they could, if the technology actually worked.

They don't want control over you; they want your money. If this stuff were real, they'd use it to get your money.

Rex, this is running the risk to get heavily OT! But I'd kindly say you're wrong I remember in the late '70s they presented a car whose engine worked with water: there was a catalytic cell which produced oxygen and hydrogen, and burned the one with the other.
We already had the technology for reducing the dependence from oil 30+ years ago, but the "powers" involved were much stronger than something elementary such as free market: that car just disappeared after its announcement.
This world is full of genial inventions which have been bought and close in a cellar because they would move too much the point of balance, to say so.

 

[101]

lol, I was the "10 seconds" guy from the 20th. Thanks for not cancelling all of my orders btw

 

[Rane]

I "believe" there are kits for Bedini's famous "Schoolgirl Motor" project for everyone to see working. OTOH, as layman we can't say if energies are running where they claim them to be etc. (maybe we can, I didn't go that deep into it).
Have you seen Electrical Motor Secrets 1 by Lindemann? He takes all kinds of meters and shows you where something is clearly not following the books anymore (no, I haven't replicated it).


I disagree, esp. these days. If you follow the scene, stuff is happening (I don't follow it that hard atm)
And you can make some projects yourself (talking about over-unity).


Sure, but it's only part of the story and very unefficient (a lot of energy gets converted to heat).

They *are* all over it, that's why nobody dares to market a device.
1) they would have no more electricity to sell
2) a big form of control over people is lost ("power" to the people is not sth "they" like!)
3) who says it would be a healthy situation anyway? Maybe we would be tapping other kinds of fields we'd be regretting later
4) even I wouldn't like that everyone would have "free energy" and be doing the most crazy things with it, which alone is reason enough to keep the lid on
And "they" probably have had it in secret for eons.
If on the contrary "they" would help out, we could more quickly get to working models.

I've seen evidence/indications that e.g. Bedini's Yahoo forum is infiltrated by "agents" that come to murky up the waters (which I would expect).
Therefore it's easy to dismiss everything by those who won't spend the time and base their opinions on 2 paragraphs of an article :|

I've spent (wasted) a lot of time researching this stuff as well... I've seen a bunch of attempts at this stuff that failed. I've seen guys with "working" stuff that was all fake. I've seen stuff that was supposed to work and be on the market within months, yet never anything. I've seen half-way attempt that "prove" that concepts should work and are never completed. I've seen a Youtube account to which was subscribed inexplicably deleted by Youtube who claimed the owner's videos of a half-build magnet motor were copyright infringements. The owner claimed was a conspiracy to shut him up, yet even so I don't believe his experiments would have worked.

I know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy who was an engineer. Allegedly, Ford contacted him to engineer a motor that operated with as little friction as possible in order to save gas. Men in black suites showed up at his house and told him that they knew what he was working on, and if he valued the lives of his family, he'd quite. ... Or so the story goes.

I don't know. It's a nice thought; free or nearly free energy, but after a while you get sick of everything smelling like fish (if you get my meaning). All these conspiracy theories and nothing to show for it. Not one device that anyone can prove does anything. Not one schematic. Nothing but tall tails, sensationalistic claims, rumors, and unproven accusations.

Then there's the Axe Fx. No tricks, no conspiracies, or blurry videos. Just good tone... I'm a believer.

 

[Rex]

Rex, this is running the risk to get heavily OT! But I'd kindly say you're wrong I remember in the late '70s they presented a car whose engine worked with water: there was a catalytic cell which produced oxygen and hydrogen, and burned the one with the other.
We already had the technology for reducing the dependence from oil 30+ years ago, but the "powers" involved were much stronger than something elementary such as free market: that car just disappeared after its announcement.
This world is full of genial inventions which have been bought and close in a cellar because they would move too much the point of balance, to say so.

I'm just itching to respond, but you're right: we've gotten way off topic. For the sake of this thread, let's agree to disagree. My apologies to the OP and to those who were hoping for a discussion of the Axe-FX and Cliff's interview thereon.

 

[jefferski]

Then there's the Axe Fx. No tricks, no conspiracies, or blurry videos. Just good tone... I'm a believer.

I hope the men in black leather jackets from Marshall and Fender don't show up at Cliff's house... :ugeek