side topic from Cliff's interview

IMO, the *magic* in old tube guitar amps is not in an undisclosed secret energy field, it's in the variations introduced by the manufacturers (probably to save money when buying bulk parts) like subbing out certain parts or accidentally putting in the wrong part etc.

To me, that's why the older amps are so different from example to example of the same year, model etc. Two 65' Fender Deluxe Reverbs side-by-side and sound very different.

So the *magic* tones are the really really really nice amp examples that the stars collect :)

Richard
 
hi guys!

i don't believe in any free energy type of `outside physics' things in terms of this discussion. however even within the boundaries of classic electrodynamics it is an interesting question, how well the dynamics inside a tube and even more on the scale of the whole circuit (including boxes, cables etc.) can be algorithmicly modeled. as far as i know, cliff has indeed acheived the best results of all amp modeling gurus so far. but scientifically this remains an extremely interesting problem, which may not yet be FULLY solved. however, the meta-question in how far further modeling achievements may still be PERCEIVABLE (from a "feel" or "listening" perspective) is even more interesting, since i don't care too much about the physical accuracy of the modeling but rather about the "feel" aspect. (i belive that "listening"-wise we are already "there" (even a pod hd may already be there in view of that)).

greets
dumblegeorge
 
I thought the point was whether or not the tube amplifier's circuit was well understood or if there was some as yet magic physics going on that accounts for the tone of the amp?

Not whether or not the circuit could be modeled in real time?

Richard
 
logically correct in a way, but what does "understood" mean then?

modeling the amp via a set of PDEs and lots of boundary conditions? still leaves open how accurately they could be solved numerically at all / in real time / on a tigersharc? also leaves open how well the PDE system really models the physical amp. modeling as an electric circuit schema? (dito)
or does "understood" have to be interpreted as the algorithms that "solve" these models? or the number that come out of the calculations.
or does "understood" have to be interpreted in connection with the boundaries of a device such as the axe fx?

even leaving out these sophistries, i doubt that any model / or "solution" (algorithm wise (symbolically) or number-wise (sub-symbolically)) can really be "complete" yet. and i also doubt that we already can precisely assess "how close we really are", because there is still too many unknown (physically unknown that is) variables and imponderabilities in the definition of "close". however, i don't want to sound too skeptical saying that because all of these questions can at least approximately be answered, and cliff has proven that impressively.
 
What I love about these suppression conspiracies is that they are not limited to a certain topic. There are nearly as many of them as there are topics.
The inevitable, thinly veiled attacks on "the current science" as being dominated by corporations with magical abilities to gloablly supress the scientific method or that other jab - that conventional science is "too narrow and doctrinal to see that..." are the common theme to glue them all together.

The idea that there is an idea that would make some people a lot of money being held down by other people with money just doesn't scale.
Money motivates and people rise to the occassion to get it sooner or later.
Sure big companies (thru the courts) and inevitable human herding (a human issue not a science method issue) can stall and retard things... but they can't stop it indefinitely.
History shows this again and again. That's why the human condition keeps changing. New ideas get out. Some are good, some not so good, but freezing to a standard is tough.
 
viabcroce said:
Well, when I was a kid they taught me electrons were like little balls running into a pipe. At the university (early '80) they started talking of gaps (sorry, not sure about the correct term here. We used to call them lacunas) moving against the apparent electricity macroscopic flowing (IOW, it was not electrons moving towards the user but rather positive charges moving counterflow).
Click to expand...
I've not even been that far into it. I think I've read a few times they still don't really know what electricity is? ("they" meaning regular science, often restricted by controlling organs and phenomena).

MoJiggity said:
There's a reason conspiracy theories are frowned upon.
Click to expand...
Actually, there are many and most are not favorable towards you. Most of the mind-controlled sheeple in front of their media screens are at least as gullible as the tin foil hats (who mostly do parrot each other and are often too gullible IMO as well). But at least the latter take the time to research, follow their intuition, do fall into traps, but can come out a lot smarter than those gullibly believing official sources, thinking they mean well for us and have no agendas of control, etc.

However, I believe the main problem on these subjects is the time you have to invest, time most never have (it is said a lot of realisations of "sth is not right" come when you have time, like on a vacation?)
The art of discernment really exists and can only grow over many many years of research, falling into traps, cross-linking info, thinking for yourself, ... You really have to invest the time and you'll still have no guarantees, except to be a lot smarter.
Since most ppl don't have this time or are nowadays too lazy to read 2 paragraphs, they like to think that's enough to have a discussion with people who researched this many years or they just dismiss it straight away (ignorance at its best). I can understand that, if you don't have the time or are too scared of what you might discover. But for these people I am sorry. "There's a reason" these people are called sheeple!

Rex said:
They don't want control over you.
Click to expand...
Just LOL... Is that why they're taking all our freedoms away? You probably hadn't even noticed or have fallen for the "terrorists" line? *Zzz*
"The real they" (whoever it is) don't have money issues. It's more important we don't get onto them and become powerful, individually or together. It's better we are kept sick, scared, poor, unpowerful, die off even. They've been able to create this "wonderful" climate where anyone who has a different opinion from the sheeple gets his head chopped of by one of their own. They don't even need police! Then people claim that it's impossible for a few to control the many...
I bet some of you agree but are afraid to admit it. The same goes for some people working in science. They can only study what is allowed or lose their job, finance it themselves and get their head chopped off by their peers.

Rane said:
I don't know. It's a nice thought; free or nearly free energy, but after a while you get sick of everything smelling like fish (if you get my meaning).
Click to expand...
I sure do and it is a reason why I quit from most "conspiracy" stuff myself (IMO it's essential to get the basics, the rest "you'll never know"), except for health research. It is a huge rabbit hole, but "truth" and gems can be found once you develop your discernment and intuition (and can test things out). Most people never have these kinds of time (I have, and I still only have some clues here and there; also because too many topics have my interests).
Always interested in your opinion (maybe in PM) if you've seen the Energy from the Vacuum series, do you think these are mostly BS, is Bedini and Lindemann BS? These guys still have some credibility to me, but I never went all the way in those subjects. I *would* be surprised if one can't replicate the effects of the Schoolgirl Project. I think I had seen plenty indication at the time that you can? But like I said, the waters are very murky and it's easy to give up or come to wrong conclusions out of frustration.
 
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On another subject...

Cliff said:
I do double-blind testing with my wife. ‘Alright, which one’s which?’ and she can’t tell.
Click to expand...
Didn't anyone frown here? Where's the science in that?? :) (she seems to do well atm though ;))
Her wanting you to do well in cloning this stuff could be enough to hear no differences!
Wouldn't it be better if you did the listening and she controlled a sound file and A/B setup and check results afterwards?
You'd still have to wear a tin foil hat or she might clue you in telepathically though! :p
 
vAmp said:
On another subject...


Didn't anyone frown here? Where's the science in that?? :) (she seems to do well atm though ;))
Her wanting you to do well in cloning this stuff could be enough to hear no differences!
Wouldn't it be better if you did the listening and she controlled a sound file and A/B setup and check results afterwards?
You'd still have to wear a tin foil hat or she might clue you in telepathically though! :p
Click to expand...

For some situations, only a 3rd ear will do. :)
 
Where's the BIG importance in splitting this off, while interesting and potentially possible observations were offered with as main trait they don't seem agreeable to the sheeple?
Where is the BIG money issue?
Again, it's control ;-) So above, so below.
 
FPFL said:
What I love about these suppression conspiracies is that they are not limited to a certain topic. There are nearly as many of them as there are topics.
The inevitable, thinly veiled attacks on "the current science" as being dominated by corporations with magical abilities to gloablly supress the scientific method or that other jab - that conventional science is "too narrow and doctrinal to see that..." are the common theme to glue them all together.

The idea that there is an idea that would make some people a lot of money being held down by other people with money just doesn't scale.
Money motivates and people rise to the occassion to get it sooner or later.
Sure big companies (thru the courts) and inevitable human herding (a human issue not a science method issue) can stall and retard things... but they can't stop it indefinitely.
History shows this again and again. That's why the human condition keeps changing. New ideas get out. Some are good, some not so good, but freezing to a standard is tough.
Click to expand...

Mhhh... I would not generalize. There's lot of bullshit around for sure, but not everything is necessarily false because someone can take it back to one of the conspiracy theories.

I repeat myself, don't know anything about free energy and I'm just marginally involved in this discussion. But a multinational company earning 1 billion per day won't easily let Prometheus gift the fire to mankind, will they?

Recently, an electronic engineer here in Italy has patented and presented the city of Rome a plan for public illumination (LEDs and the like) by which the municipality (hence people) would save 90% on the bill. The new plants would pay for themselves in a few years.
Well, they have refused to consider it. Feel free to draw your conclusions.

(What if a member of the Energy Commission also worked for one of the firms making money with the electricity in Rome (supplier, plants upkeep service... name one)?

The reason why the conspiracy theories are often silly and naive is that it's almost always no conspiracy at all: it's just the Exercise of Power.
Weren't Americans convinced that USA Army was in Middle East to protect democracy? No conspiracy: just power, and mass persuasion.

Peace
 
FPFL said:
What I love about these suppression conspiracies is that they are not limited to a certain topic. There are nearly as many of them as there are topics.
The inevitable, thinly veiled attacks on "the current science" as being dominated by corporations with magical abilities to gloablly supress the scientific method or that other jab - that conventional science is "too narrow and doctrinal to see that..." are the common theme to glue them all together.
Click to expand...
And why would that be? Because it is so easily provable and admitted by people that are and/or were in it.
Try to get research funds for truely interesting stuff. It is not allowed (if it has the potential to eventually make the sheeple more powerful).
Instead they have to keep up researching stuff that will get us nowhere, or for which good solutions already exist plentiful.

The medical research is the funniest of all. A lot of their conclusions about life are based on looking through a microscope at stained and dead material, while it's been possible since the dark ages to study live blood and witness stuff like pleomorphism. Of course they can't acknowledge this, it would put everything on its head. How in-credible can you get?
 
But what if the ones in control... acted like they were not the ones in control... and in fact tried to spread conspiracy theories... on internet forums? just so the rest of us would shoot it down... and think its all malarky... thus fooling everyone... and staying in control? what about that? :)

<twilight zone music>

Richard
 
viabcroce said:
The reason why the conspiracy theories are often silly and naive is that it's almost always no conspiracy at all
Click to expand...
Another reason is that a lot of disinfo is put there on purpose by so-called straw men (it is said to consume a huge part of the budget).
These are often easy to recognize by their coming and going and bringing ridiculous info indeed (remember the 9-11 "pods").
Then magazines address exactly these disinfos or put even one of them together with genuine info, and thereby can easily discredit all the info for most people who don't think twice (or rather don't think for themselves at all). It's sad how easily people fall for it.
 
barhrecords said:
But what if the ones in control... acted like they were not the ones in control... and in fact tried to spread conspiracy theories... on internet forums? just so the rest of us would shoot it down... and think its all malarky... thus fooling everyone... and staying in control? what about that? :)

<twilight zone music>

Richard
Click to expand...
If I understand you correctly, I'd say that's exactly what's happening. See my previous post. Research straw men, puppets, shills, ... :)
But I think you already know ;)
 
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