Dynamic range issues

It does sound like gain staging. Plug the Axe's output directly into a studio monitor (powered :) ) and see if it sounds the same. I don't get anywhere near that much distortion on the factory Top Boost patch.
 
orbantracs said:
Maybe I am wrong but I would still expect very quiet playing to be a lot quieter than very loud "banging the shit out of the guitar" playing. Are there any settings on the amp block that compress (obviously the compression knob does) or have "compression like" qualities I should be aware of? I really feel like this is not normal or expected behavior. I am going to try everything everyone has suggested and then probably try a factory reset. Thanks again to everyone that has been helpful, I really appreciate it.
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Not on a preset that has preamp or preamp type distortion on it. According as gain increases, dynamic range decreases. This happens because the valve is essentially overloaded with signal and is pushed past the point of clean operation. When the signal is increased in this way the overall signal floor level is increased. The valve (for all intents and purposes) has a ceiling beyond which the signal cannot go. The raising of the signal reduces dynamic range, acting as a distorting 'compressor'. If you want distortion, you will get compression, and this is an artifact of amp function.

I would try reducing gain first, as when you multitrack guitars the gain all adds up and the sound can be muddy and lacking in definition.
 
What are the values of your Input 1 and Input 2 trim levels in the I/O menu? What is your gate threshold level in the GLOBAL menu?
 
Looks like either your Axe output is set too low and/or your input gain is too low. I don't think you've acquired a free compressor.

It's hard to judge the dynamic range of a distorting amp through a phone mic.

What is the focusrite input meter saying?
 
I use the Dorrough meter plug in Waves in my DAW with the AxeFx II Mark I S/PDIF out into Pro Tools.

I can verify the RMS to Peak can be quite wide. Especially on a clean patch where you snap the lower strings really hard.

With an RMS in the -20dbFs range I can easily get up into the -3, -1dbFs range by popping the string hard.
 
One thing that caught my attention while checking out your video is that the sound does not match the metering too well. Yes, the volume is rather squashed but that's not abnormal for the patch you chose. Maybe cleaning up with the volume knob will eventually tame it.
But more important for the sake of what you're asking, why don't you check the metering option in PT and see what it is set at. It looks like you're only seeing RMS, which would more or less eliminate the true dynamic range from the metering and chop any peaks.
I would also do your test again using a clean patch where the dynamic range is more obvious.
Also, please note that your dynamic range is not 2dB. When you're not playing the meter goes down to below -40. The dynamic range is the range between "silence" and your full playing.
Lastly, are you recording the processed signal or the dry signal?
 
Patzag said:
One thing that caught my attention while checking out your video is that the sound does not match the metering too well. Yes, the volume is rather squashed but that's not abnormal for the patch you chose. Maybe cleaning up with the volume knob will eventually tame it.
But more important for the sake of what you're asking, why don't you check the metering option in PT and see what it is set at. It looks like you're only seeing RMS, which would more or less eliminate the true dynamic range from the metering and chop any peaks.
I would also do your test again using a clean patch where the dynamic range is more obvious.
Also, please note that your dynamic range is not 2dB. When you're not playing the meter goes down to below -40. The dynamic range is the range between "silence" and your full playing.
Lastly, are you recording the processed signal or the dry signal?
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Thanks for this, I will try these suggestions on Wednesday when I am back recording again.

Just to clarify, I am not clipping the axe or the interface. The main volume is about 5 o'clock on the front. I am recording the processed signal coming out of output 1 on the axe into the focusrite (tried mono and strereo). I wish I had a DI box to record dry guitars in tandem but I do not.

Sorry, I guess dynamic range is not defined how I thought it was.
 
This looks like a gain staging issue, not an Axe issue. Your level going in to protools is way too low. You've got the fader maxed out and very little level. Turn the output on the Axe up. Check the input trim or pad settings on your mixer, console, or recording interface. Set it for line level input and feed it the hottest signal you can from the Axe without it clipping. It's always better to have a signal that is too hot and have to turn it down, as long as you are not clipping. Boosting a signal also boosts the noise, lowering the signal to noise ratio. Also turn your monitors off until you get your input levels setup properly. If your monitor levels are high, they can fool you into thinking your signal is high enough because it's loud. Once you're getting a hot signal into PT, then turn up your monitors to a comfortable level.
 
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mr_fender said:
This looks like a gain staging issue, not an Axe issue. Your level going in to protools is way too low. You've got the fader maxed out and very little level. Turn the output on the Axe up. Check the input trim or pad settings on your mixer, console, or recording interface. Set it for line level input and feed it the hottest signal you can from the Axe without it clipping. It's always better to have a signal that is too hot and have to turn it down, as long as you are not clipping. Boosting a signal also boosts the noise, lowering the signal to noise ratio. Also turn your monitors off until you get your input levels setup properly. If your monitor levels are high, they can fool you into thinking your signal is high enough because it loud. Once you're getting a hot signal into PT, then turn up your monitors to a comfortable level.
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Thank you! Very good advice.
 
orbantracs said:
Thanks for this, I will try these suggestions on Wednesday when I am back recording again.

Just to clarify, I am not clipping the axe or the interface. The main volume is about 5 o'clock on the front. I am recording the processed signal coming out of output 1 on the axe into the focusrite (tried mono and strereo). I wish I had a DI box to record dry guitars in tandem but I do not.

Sorry, I guess dynamic range is not defined how I thought it was.
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You do. Output 2 can be used for the dry input. Set the Echo Output 2 (I/O-audio) to Input and the dry signal from your guitar will be sent out of output 2.
 
mr_fender said:
It's always better to have a signal that is too hot and have to turn it down, as long as you are not clipping. Boosting a signal also boosts the noise, lowering the signal to noise ratio.
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This is actually not true. You should be feeding the converters the appropriate signal for their design. Converters are designed with certain input levels in mind. If you feed them a hotter signal, they will effectively saturate, affecting your recordings in subtle ways. Your mixing experience will almost certainly be more difficult also.

More info here: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles
And here: http://www.harmonycentral.com/articles/recording-levels-and-gain-staging

Get your preamps peaking around -18dBFS to -12dBFS and your mixes will sound much better right off the bat, and you'll be hitting the gear at the levels they were designed to work with.
 
AndyTNBD said:
This is actually not true. You should be feeding the converters the appropriate signal for their design. Converters are designed with certain input levels in mind. If you feed them a hotter signal, they will effectively saturate, affecting your recordings in subtle ways. Your mixing experience will almost certainly be more difficult also.

More info here: Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles
And here: Recording Levels And Gain Staging - Harmony Central

Get your preamps peaking around -18dBFS to -12dBFS and your mixes will sound much better right off the bat, and you'll be hitting the gear at the levels they were designed to work with.
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I sincerely hope his recording isn't passing through a mic preamp and he's using line inputs. Plus if the AD converters clip, his clip light would come on. I think this article is more about overloading the analog part of the signal chain.

Therefore:

Would it be worth the OP trying digital? Dunno if his Focusrite interface would have digital I/O. I'm still baffled as to why his direct guitar signal is allegedly hotter than the Axe.

Also, look at most distorted guitar wav files, they are generally low on dynamics compared to a clean blues amp.
 
True, but I meant too hot in the context of the mix. You definitely don't want to clip the inputs. You just want to utilize the widest possible dynamic range without clipping.
 
Andrew Male said:
I sincerely hope his recording isn't passing through a mic preamp and he's using line inputs. Plus if the AD converters clip, his clip light would come on. I think this article is more about overloading the analog part of the signal chain.
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Just correcting the misconception that recording hot as possible is the ideal, and that it preserves signal to noise ratio. It doesn't. It introduces harmonic distortion and screws your mix.

mr_fender said:
You just want to utilize the widest possible dynamic range without clipping.
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And recording hot as possible does not do this.
 
Andrew Male said:
I think this article is more about overloading the analog part of the signal chain.

Therefore:

Would it be worth the OP trying digital?
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No the article is refering to the analog portion of AD converters getting "overdriven". You should always leave a bit of headroom in the digital realm, but an AD converter that cannot remain linear up to its 0db conversion point sounds like a very poorly designed converter to me.
 
AndyTNBD said:
Just correcting the misconception that recording hot as possible is the ideal, and that it preserves signal to noise ratio. It doesn't. It introduces harmonic distortion and screws your mix.
And recording hot as possible does not do this.
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I think we are miscommunicating here. I agree that you should not "red-line" your recordings. You want as hot a signal as possible while still remaining totally clean, i.e. no additional distortion or clipping at all. Consumer gear usually does not have the finest hardware specs, so you have to leave a bit of headroom to be safe, but in the context of the thread, the OP is having the opposite problem. His level is getting squashed somewhere along the way.
 
mr_fender said:
No the article is refering to the analog portion of AD converters getting "overdriven". You should always leave a bit of headroom in the digital realm, but an AD converter that cannot remain linear up to its 0db conversion point sounds like a very poorly designed converter to me.
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The point is that there are different scales. 0dBVU is not the same as 0dBFS. Our DAWs and digital gear shows signals in 0dBFS, but converters are designed with 0dBVU in mind. Which equates to around -18dBFS. Which is why you shouldn't crank your mic pre's or drive your line inputs too high. There really is no need.

Anyway, said my piece. OP's situation sounds odd, can't watch his video here, maybe later when I get home.
 
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Very true. They are totally different scales. Also, with 24 bit audio, it's not the concern it used to be. 144db dynamic range vs 96db with 16 bit audio, so even at low levels there's still plenty of resolution available.
 
This is getting way too technical haha.

There's not enough input going into the recording program; if the axe output knob is truly at 5 o'clock, basically all the way up, then he needs to turn up the focusrite input gain a bit, but not so it clips.

I think it's the visual range causing the issue here, not the audio. I would love to see another video clip when he gets back to the studio with a purely clean tone, even just shunts would do, but again with more input to the DAW. Make those green meters get up to 0 dB.
 
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