Axe FX VS. TC electronic 2290

onemoreguitar said:
If you're wanting to copy the Edge sound, one of the things that has the biggest impact on the tone is actually the smallest thing... the pick. A Herdim pick turned upside down using the grip to strum the strings is absolutely essential, I'd say even more so than any particular delay unit. He uses upwards of 20 distinctly different guitars, many different effect units (including delays), and even multiple amps almost every show....one unique guitar pick with a very particular sound for his entire career. ...............
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And here I was, thinking that what made the Edge sound like the Edge, was ...well..... the Edge. Silly me.
We can try to emulate a certain players sound and some will get close. Some gear will help, but it´s still the touch of a master, or in this case the touch of a student of said master that will bring a good result more than the gear used.
Whether the Edge choose to go with an Axe II or an 2290 live doesn't mean that the other unit isn't spectacular. IMHO both are. I use which ever unit fits the situation best. Sometimes the Axe is needed or preferred, as it can do somethings that the 2290 can´t do and if space and weight is at a premium, which is often the case, the Axe is impossible to beat IMHO. But the 2290 is has it´s own thing going, that the Axe can´t (as of yet at least IMHO), recreate entirely, and sometimes the "2290 thing" is just what a project calls for and sometimes when I can bring out more gear, I bring the 2290 AND the Axe. Both have something very unique to offer, and saying that digital is digital, and newer units are always better is just bogus. By that reasoning the Line 6 POD HD300 should be better than the G1 Axe's - I for one don't find that to be the case.
 
Yes, I have herdim picks. I left that out of the basic equipment required. Part of the sound is the sparkle caused by the pick. But back on point, regardless of the edge which is one example I want to hear the real strength of the 2290 in an isolated recording so that I can replicate that. I'm never limited to single blocks and am aware that others may be necessary.

I guess I'll need to get on eBay and figure this out on my own. I'll post results of the 2290 in the effects loop for a good a/b test if I go that route. Can anyone tell me which exact 2290 I should get (year, memory add, etc.)?
 
Rocket Brother said:
And here I was, thinking that what made the Edge sound like the Edge, was ...well..... the Edge. Silly me.
We can try to emulate a certain players sound and some will get close. Some gear will help, but it´s still the touch of a master, or in this case the touch of a student of said master that will bring a good result more than the gear used.
Whether the Edge choose to go with an Axe II or an 2290 live doesn't mean that the other unit isn't spectacular. IMHO both are. I use which ever unit fits the situation best. Sometimes the Axe is needed or preferred, as it can do somethings that the 2290 can´t do and if space and weight is at a premium, which is often the case, the Axe is impossible to beat IMHO. But the 2290 is has it´s own thing going, that the Axe can´t (as of yet at least IMHO), recreate entirely, and sometimes the "2290 thing" is just what a project calls for and sometimes when I can bring out more gear, I bring the 2290 AND the Axe. Both have something very unique to offer, and saying that digital is digital, and newer units are always better is just bogus. By that reasoning the Line 6 POD HD300 should be better than the G1 Axe's - I for one don't find that to be the case.
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Of course the Edge himself is the vital ingredient, but we can't all go out and buy our own personal Edge to play the stuff for us. A Herdim is easy to come buy and you'd be amazed how much of that tone, is in that pick... even in less than masterful hands it has a vey distinct sound.


I'm not suggesting that you think the II isn't spectacular as well. You might have missed the last point in my long ramble.... If you can put your finger on what that unique thing is in the 2290 that you feel is not in the AFX version, make an official request of it and your chances of having exactly that in the AFX version go up immensely. That's based on past experiences I've had personally and have witnessed unfolding through the forums over the years. Another example is the compressor which was updated based on a very specific request by Radley a couple years back. Radley is a top player and has a lot of experience with some of the best compressors ever made and so was able to give very specific details about what he felt was missing. A lot of people agreed, and most importantly, Cliff agreed, so it was implemented in the next firmware. The noise gate was another. There's heaps more. Cliff listens to feedback way more than probably anyone in this industry, but you have to give actual requests, not vague "this one just has a certain sound". You'd be amazed how many requests show up in new firmwares when someone has a very specific request and others agree. Not every time, but easily often enough to make a proper request worth your time.


The DSP, even in the AFX Std, is much more powerful than the chip in the HD500, IIRC. That's not even taking in to account all the other components which are top notch on all the AXF models, whereas the Line 6 stuff is all made to a price point. There haven't been any changes in DSPs since the time of the Ultra or even before. That's why the II has 2 of the Tiger SHARCs from the Ultra instead of a new DSP. He wanted more power and there still wasn't anything more powerful available. So the Standard is still the newer more superior technology. We don't even need to bring the Ultra or the II into this. Truthfully, while the II has 2 of the top DSP available, it's really Cliffs superior code which makes the difference, and anyone would have to be Johnny on the spot to take the title of newest firmware from Cliff. He's had multiple generational upgrades in far less time than it takes L6 to even take care of well known and quite major bugs on gen1 firmwares.
 
Rocket Brother said:
saying that digital is digital, and newer units are always better is just bogus. By that reasoning the Line 6 POD HD300 should be better than the G1 Axe's - I for one don't find that to be the case.
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Nor do I.

I was clear that I think new L6 is better than old L6 and new FAS is better than old FAS and old TC.

It seemed obvious to point out that no matter how new, lower quality gear won't stand up to some even very dated top of the line equipment...

But I guess I should have made it clearer I was referring to the fact that newer meant better in digital when you are comparing products from remotely similar quality tiers.

I assumed it went without saying that Line 6 gear cannot compare to FAS in terms of depth of programming algorithms or processing power, so the comparison doesn't really apply. I consider the 2290 and the Axe to be of a like strata of gear: top-quality pro gear. As a once L6 user for many years, I dont hold them in as high regard.

I guess you think I'd take a brand new Westinghouse flat screen over a two year-old Sony Bravia, too... ;-) lol
 
onemoreguitar said:
Of course the Edge himself is the vital ingredient, but we can't all go out and buy our own personal Edge to play the stuff for us. A Herdim is easy to come buy and you'd be amazed how much of that tone, is in that pick... even in less than masterful hands it has a vey distinct sound.


I'm not suggesting that you think the II isn't spectacular as well. You might have missed the last point in my long ramble.... If you can put your finger on what that unique thing is in the 2290 that you feel is not in the AFX version, make an official request of it and your chances of having exactly that in the AFX version go up immensely. That's based on past experiences I've had personally and have witnessed unfolding through the forums over the years. Another example is the compressor which was updated based on a very specific request by Radley a couple years back. Radley is a top player and has a lot of experience with some of the best compressors ever made and so was able to give very specific details about what he felt was missing. A lot of people agreed, and most importantly, Cliff agreed, so it was implemented in the next firmware. The noise gate was another. There's heaps more. Cliff listens to feedback way more than probably anyone in this industry, but you have to give actual requests, not vague "this one just has a certain sound". You'd be amazed how many requests show up in new firmwares when someone has a very specific request and others agree. Not every time, but easily often enough to make a proper request worth your time.


The DSP, even in the AFX Std, is much more powerful than the chip in the HD500, IIRC. That's not even taking in to account all the other components which are top notch on all the AXF models, whereas the Line 6 stuff is all made to a price point. There haven't been any changes in DSPs since the time of the Ultra or even before. That's why the II has 2 of the Tiger SHARCs from the Ultra instead of a new DSP. He wanted more power and there still wasn't anything more powerful available. So the Standard is still the newer more superior technology. We don't even need to bring the Ultra or the II into this. Truthfully, while the II has 2 of the top DSP available, it's really Cliffs superior code which makes the difference, and anyone would have to be Johnny on the spot to take the title of newest firmware from Cliff. He's had multiple generational upgrades in far less time than it takes L6 to even take care of well known and quite major bugs on gen1 firmwares.
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Onemoreguitar, I hope and think that you know that my ”silly me” comment was made tongue in cheek. I was an early adopter of the Ultra, and have used my Axe’s in a professional setting since, so I know the things in you post about DSP power, the 2 Tiger SHARC’s in the Axe II, and Cliffs formidable commitment to the Axe and his responce to end users requests. I’m sure Cliff has a TC 2290, and that he’s either decided that the Axe 2290 version is close enough for rock ’n roll or that he will refine it when it fits his time table. Both are fine by me, I just responded to the OP’s question and later defended my opinion that I can certainly hear a difference between the TC 2290 and the Axe 2290. I don´t need the Axe to nail the 2290 sound, I’d like it to, but I can easily get by with ”just” the Axe in a live setting if weight is at a premium.

ccroyalsenders said:
Nor do I.

I was clear that I think new L6 is better than old L6 and new FAS is better than old FAS and old TC.

It seemed obvious to point out that no matter how new, lower quality gear won't stand up to some even very dated top of the line equipment...

But I guess I should have made it clearer I was referring to the fact that newer meant better in digital when you are comparing products from remotely similar quality tiers.

I assumed it went without saying that Line 6 gear cannot compare to FAS in terms of depth of programming algorithms or processing power, so the comparison doesn't really apply. I consider the 2290 and the Axe to be of a like strata of gear: top-quality pro gear. As a once L6 user for many years, I dont hold them in as high regard.

I guess you think I'd take a brand new Westinghouse flat screen over a two year-old Sony Bravia, too... ;-) lol
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I know you don´t, but you were speaking very much in absolutes and thereby discarded the possibility of difference in taste or opinion. I agree that the new L6 stuff sounds better than the old L6 stuff, same progression IMO apply to the FAS products, but that doesn’t mean that new FAS stuff is better than older TC products, even if TC and FAS is in the same quality tier. Or would you say by definition that if TC release a new delay tomorrow, that it will be better than the Axe since the TC unit would be newer – don´t answer that, I know you don’t.
I think that the delay in the TC 2290 is at a level that TC has not reached since with other products, and often a top tier piece of gear will have a sound so good that it will stand up to other top tier gear many generations newer.
Btw, just to mess with you, both the flat screens you mention are at best in the L6 category :)
 
Rocket Brother said:
Or would you say by definition that if TC release a new delay tomorrow, that it will be better than the Axe since the TC unit would be newer – don´t answer that, I know you don’t.
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I do have to answer this, though by saying that if they did, it might be better, but--perhaps you'll agree--pro-level gear, especially regarding delay DSP is so good as this point, I would likely be hard-pressed to tell the difference.
 
I've actually purchased a 2290 this week because, after so much years, I just wanted to have one for myself and try it out. I've gotta say ... it has something. Its pre-amp, filters, modulation. There's something about it, for sure. However, I'm definitely gonna try to see if I can get some 2290 tones out of my ULTRA, seeing as I can A/B them now.
 
Morphosis said:
And if you got it, share the patch please ;)
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Sure, however, I think we can all get pretty close, really, especially considering you've got 4 fixed settings per band for the filter and the modulation we can all adjust to taste. However, I don't know if I can get the voicing of the 2290, or else I wouldn't have got it in the first place. I can probably get close, though, but I think that's about it.
For example, I still own 2 Deluxe Memory Man units and I've not been able to get the exact DMM tone, not even really close, to be honest. Some units just have their own vibe going on and seeing as I've got the real thing, I often not really spend too much time on trying to remake that sound, knowing it would take me way too long or simple not get there completely.
... and besides, I have the originals and not without a reason! ;)
 
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Yeah, I saw that one yesterday as well, but that's just the pre-amp, which is nice, but the voicing of the entire delay section is what makes the 2290 the 2290, for me. The pre-amp is a part of it, sure.
 
Here are a few clips of the 2290. I didn't compare it yet to the Axe, at least A/B'd, but I wanted to showcase it seeing as I've never actually seen/heard a decently recorded clip of this unit on YouTube/etc. It's kinda ironic, seeing as when you own this thing, you would expect someone to have the cash for a decent mic / etc. ;)



Here are a few clips I did of the TC 2290, seeing as I've never actually seen/heard a decently recorded clip of this unit on YouTube/etc. It's kinda ironic, seeing as when you own this thing, you would expect someone to have the cash for a decent mic / etc. ;)

I showcase some U2 style playing in the first two bits, since The Edge is one of the most known 2290 users and a lot of people get this unit for his sound, so why not showcase it? I'm by no means a U2 fan, just to clear that up, but it's hard to deny that The Edge has a great tone.

I also showcase some Deluxe Memory Man style shorter and warmer delays and switch between pickups now and then and engage some low gain (Dyna Comp + RAT) to show how it takes to gain sounds. I let the delay ring out now and then to just showcase the trails. I also switch between the different filter modes and the different panning modes. I highly suggest listening to these clips with headphones on to get the best representation of the stereo field, seeing as this clip is recorded in stereo.

- - -

Gear used for recording:
- PreSonus FirePod
- Ableton Live 8.0.4
Plugins:
- Lexicon PCM Reverb (1sec Concert Hall modulated reverb mixed at 35%)
- IZotope Ozone

- - -

Gear used:

Guitar:
- Fender '08 California Series U.S.A. Stratocaster [Fender Tex-Mex pickups + treble bleed mod]
.010 Fender Bullet Strings (tuned in E Standard)

SIGNAL CHAIN:
:: PEDALBOARD::
- '76 MXR Dyna Comp Script Logo (modded: PSU input, white LED, true bypass)
- ProCo RAT (modded: 3 way clipping switch, LED, bass boost knob)
- Ernie Ball VP Jr (modded: upgraded audio taper pot)
- '76 EHX Electric Mistress (modded: true bypass, green LED, calibration, volume drop mod, level/mix knob, PSU input)
- 80ies EHX Deluxe Memory Man (modded: true bypass)
- Line 6 Echo Park V1.2
- BOSS RV-3 (modded: high cut switch, white LED)
:: PEDALBOARD END ::
- Fractal Audio Axe-FX ULTRA
--- STEREO FX LOOP:
- tc electronic 2290 Dynamic Digital Delay
--- Axe-FX ULTRA STEREO OUT:
- tc electronic 1210 Spatial + Chorus / Flanger
--- STEREO OUT INTO PreSonus FirePod

Various:
- 1x Burkey Flatliner SIX (power supply)

- - -

More info on the total gear [for all you gearheads]:
- DCS' Post-Rock/Shoegaze/Ambient Rig - GeekChat!

All mods by Technophobia Analog Audio Solutions:
- Technophobia; Analog Audio Solutions

- - -

For info on my music projects, see:
- Arafúra
Ambient / Dream Pop / Shoegaze / Post-Rock

- IZAH
Post-Metal / Sludge / Post-Rock / Noise
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nicely done, sir. sounds amazing.

i'd be very interested to hear some A/B clips between the 2290 and the axe in 2290 mode. we know the real thing colours the sound in a particular way and i think one side is phase reversed, isn't it? could you set the two units up with similar mod rates, depths and times, so we could hear the differences?

if cliff got his hands on one of these, i'm sure he could figure it out... :)
 
simeon said:
nicely done, sir. sounds amazing.

i'd be very interested to hear some A/B clips between the 2290 and the axe in 2290 mode. we know the real thing colours the sound in a particular way and i think one side is phase reversed, isn't it? could you set the two units up with similar mod rates, depths and times, so we could hear the differences?

if cliff got his hands on one of these, i'm sure he could figure it out... :)
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Thanks! I'll see what I can do! Regarding the phase, yes, it's reversed. I tried playing around with both options and there's a difference, but it's quite small.
 
All in all: a very interesting thread to follow despise the misunderstandings/flamings!
I´d like to share my thoughts on this topic as well, as I am (as most of you?) somewhat a delay-fanatic too (owns 2 x DL8000R, D-two, Ultra, II and Echoplex DDP). Never owned nor played a 2290 though, and probably never will.


If someone got the time, I´d really like to hear what he/she says about how it FEELS, in the same regard as how we often speaks about the amps in Axe. Does the 2290 feels different compared to the same tempo/time settings in axe? How would you describe the differencies?


The reason that I ask is that, when I read this thread I came to think about the routing in bigger rigs consisting of several units: the impact of all cables (capacitance), differencies in impedance, differencies in A/D and D/A conversions and the impact on the phase shifting/delay when a signal goes thru all different gears. And how the units themselves mixes dry/wet signals. And whatever more.

I´ve tried to replicate the settings from my "signature" sound of the core of my old rig (a somewhat big one but definitely not pro):


Guitar => 2x Boss GX700 => (FX-loop Send of GX700) DL8000R => AM8000R => AM8000R => (FX-loop Return of GX700) => out from GX700 => input of amp (x2).


As I said: definitely not pro. I even shoot all of it into the input of my amps (set to clean channel). Haven´t taken care of all hiss/hum problems. I was on it, but I am and have been quite lazy in this regard. I won´t go into detail of why, because it is irrelevant but this setup were a part of a much bigger picture. I had a greater plan/vision, but not the money so I didn´t take care of all the pitfalls of my system first. As they would be taken care of later on. Since then the Ultra came into the picture (and now the II), so now I´m trying to figure out what and how much I am able to downsize. To make the whole system more maintenance-free. And also trying to figure out if the (routing/programming) flexibility will be on par of my (planned) system. Not saying that flexibility is better than what is in the axe, but a different approach...

To be honest I haven´t tried painstakingly to replicate this setup, but I have made a patch where I´ve put the blocks in the same manner as my abovementioned units are connected. There are many parallell connection/mixing of signals in this setup and I´ve probably not got it all 100% correct. But the most surprising thing is actually that the delays of the axe for me FEELS different, the same tempo/time settings and divisions feels somehow different to my system.
I can´t really explain it. I guess the closest would be that the axe delays feels somehow "stressed" where in my system the delays feels "relaxed". Whatever that means. I´m starting to think that there is some micro-second delays/phase delays between all these units that I´m not aware of but that I have learned to play/vibe with. I guess there´s close to none of these imperfections within the grid in the axe, or at least the imperfections are different and that is confusing my mind in recognizing "my sound"/"my settings". It would be interesting to analyze/compare all this with the help of analysis tools (frequencies, phase, timing imperfections and whatever).


Have anyone of you felt this way and if so, how did you deal with it in your axe?

/Mike
 
Hey Demo, I've spent hours with all your youtube demos- thanks for all those!

The Illinois Lottery is getting up towards $500,000,000... I'm not a gambling man, but if I won, I'd start a collection of vintage delays of all ilks. I love em! I'd also be interested to hear a 2290 vs. Axe demo.
 
Due to colouring tc 2290 sounds more spatial natural instead of raw II presets but the more I dig in the better results im getting with II but at the same time there is something missing in dynamics and trails but I'm still trying to figure what that is... and might be delay placing.
 
Adman103 said:
Hey Demo, I've spent hours with all your youtube demos- thanks for all those!

The Illinois Lottery is getting up towards $500,000,000... I'm not a gambling man, but if I won, I'd start a collection of vintage delays of all ilks. I love em! I'd also be interested to hear a 2290 vs. Axe demo.
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Aw, thanks! That's really cool to hear! And yeah, I'll do my best to A/B as nicely as possible. I've done it with gear like the Strymon El Cap vs. my tape delay collection and that shoot out worked really well.
 
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