Anyone Want to Test This Beta Firmware

yek said:
This new and easy method enables you to use regular equipment (any amp) without disadvantages. It doesn't require additional trouble, it's less trouble.
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Yes, this new method is intriguing since it easily and effectively takes any type of power amp 'error' out of the equation when shooting IR's.

What this new method does could be simplified to:

-any power amp/speaker cable adds it's own color/influence to the tone/response to the cab; we are only interested in the cab response/IR
-this method captures an 'error' signal which and is applied to the IR capture and removes any power amp influence, leaving the pure cab IR only.

This is cool since we want all power amp influence on the tone, etc. to come from the AXE II and not have the originating power amp influence 'baked in' to the IR. Most excellent....
 
yek said:
Cab Pack 6 gives you the choice. You can use the non-compensated or compensated versions (after Cab-Lab is released).

Personally I can't see, given the choice, why anyone would use the non-compensated ones. The Amp model already provides the coloration. Why and when would the non-essential, non-configurable coloration, baked in during the capture process, be desirable?

I can now use a $150 or less amp, to capture IRs, without worrying about the quality of the resulting IRs. No need to apply a reference IR afterwards: when shooting the IR the compensation is applied automatically and directly.
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Because maybe the baked in tone gets you closer to the end product quicker. That is all. Removing a baked in sound or leaving it there is just a matter of preference. I like some EQs better than others it seems.

I really hope I'm not coming off like a negative nancy here. That is not my intention. I totally get the reason behind this and always appreciate the lengths at which Cliff will go to get us closer to reality.

My point is more around "perfection". With so many variables in the process, there is no real perfection, especially when it comes to EQ curves caused by the gear. My amps and cabs sound different on different days and is dependent on how many hours of play as well as the friggin temp in the room, lol. BUT, if IRs were dynamic like Cliff's amp modeling... holy grail for me.
 
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erockomania said:
Why would impedance curves matter on a static IR...
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Good question. The impedance curve affects the IR you capture. It gets baked into the IR, unless you compensate for it.


erockomania said:
Most of the time I barely touch EQ when I'm tweaking. I pick an IR that works for me first.
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You may find that this new method gives you IRs that work even better for you. :)


erockomania said:
Many of the IRs I have were taken by a high end solid state amp that gives a VERY flat response. I tend to find them a little lifeless for what I'm after.
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High-end, solid-state power amps only have flat response when they're feeding a flat impedance curve. Real, physical speakers don't have a flat impedance curve.
 
Rex said:
Good question. The impedance curve affects the IR you capture. It gets baked into the IR, unless you compensate for it.



You may find that this new method gives you IRs that work even better for you. :)



High-end, solid-state power amps only have flat response when they're feeding a flat impedance curve. Real, physical speakers don't have a flat impedance curve.
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Rex, appreciate it.

Impedance curves then, are simply giving you a different "baked in" EQ curve, right?
 
OK - I understand that it will help people with cheap gear get better results. I just don't see how "perfect" will ever describe anything that comes down to audio. I like the way the tube power amp IRs from OH sound - the ones I like best have some color "baked in" so to speak. They work for me way better than any super clean, pristine, as flat as they can get it SS IR I've ever dinked with.

But hey... look on the bright side... at least now, after everybody is using these new "perfected" IRs, we can all finally agree that the recto model in the Axe-fx II sucks major balls, and maybe we can get a replacement for it at some point...

tee-hee
 
erockomania said:
Impedance curves then, are simply giving you a different "baked in" EQ curve, right?
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Right. The power amp has a different output into an 8-ohm impedance than it has into a 16-ohm impedance. And a real "8 ohm" speaker can have an impedance of 16 ohms or more at some frequencies.
 
Speculum Speculorum said:
I like the way the tube power amp IRs from OH sound - the ones I like best have some color "baked in" so to speak. They work for me way better than any super clean, pristine, as flat as they can get it SS IR I've ever dinked with.
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Those super clean, pristine SS IRs aren't really flat. They have a color baked into them, too. Now, with this new capture technique, you have the chance to try a truly flat IR, and find out whether you prefer that.
 
Rex said:
Right. The power amp has a different output into an 8-ohm impedance than it has into a 16-ohm impedance. And a real "8 ohm" speaker can have an impedance of 16 ohms or more at some frequencies.
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Got it. So, an IR with baked-in, amp-created peaks (harmonics and other potential "goodies" or garbage) will have those peaks removed to create a clean capture of the cab? If so, I'm totally clear, so thank you :)
 
I wonder if this reference IR technique could have other applications?

Could a reference IR be used to correct errors in real time for a power amp that was being used for a conventional speaker system like FOH PA?

Or would it not make sense to use an IR to correct response errors in an amp that is driving a real speaker?
 
^^^^
Like when people were using EQ curves to flatten out the response of the Verve powered speakers. That would be interesting, useful & it seems to me, wholly possible.
 
yek said:
Examples. Source: reamped DI signal, through the 4x12 Beatle cab, Royer 121 "B" (from Cab Pack 6).

1st clip without reference IR applied ("regular" UltraRes IR)

2nd clip with reference IR applied (same UltraRes IR with power amp coloration removed)

You may not hear any/much difference because the power amp coloration in the not-compensated IR already is minimal, due to professional IR capturing.

But you'll see differences when comparing the wave forms of the clips.
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the files won't play :-(
 
This has been an interesting discussion to read, particularly the comments wondering if the baked in colour of an uncompensated IR might actually be preferrable. Perhaps it's useful to look at this through the eyes of a parallel situation that many of us can relate to.

We had a similar debate when FRFR gained significant traction some time back. Some thought the colour introduced by a less than ideal FRFR solution might be preferred to a "pure" FRFR solution. Generally speaking, IMHO, that's not the case. It's a crap shoot assuming that the non-linearity of a poor FRFR solution is desirable, and you really have no idea if that's the case until you hear it beside a truly linear system. Beginning with "pure" and adding colour (if needed) is usually the better way to go.

Based on Cliff's comments this will be similar. The nice part is that we'll soon be able to experiment and see for ourselves.

Terry.
 
I don't mess with the AMP block SPKR page very often.

I've always wondered if auditioning IR's had more to do with finding an IR that more closely worked with the default SPKR page settings.

Maybe these new IR's will work across more different AMP types with their default SPKR page settings?
 
erockomania said:
Got it. So, an IR with baked-in, amp-created peaks (harmonics and other potential "goodies" or garbage) will have those peaks removed to create a clean capture of the cab? If so, I'm totally clear, so thank you :)
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The peaks and valleys caused by the power amp will be eliminated. The peaks and valleys caused by the cab itself will remain. That's the cab's true sound.
 
barhrecords said:
I wonder if this reference IR technique could have other applications?

Could a reference IR be used to correct errors in real time for a power amp that was being used for a conventional speaker system like FOH PA?

Or would it not make sense to use an IR to correct response errors in an amp that is driving a real speaker?
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This is what I was trying to get across in an earlier post. even remove the additional power amp coloring thru the frfr that is right in the room with you too
 
I would describe the un-compensated ir's as sounding like (dull) midrange peanut butter smeared over the sound. It's very obvious to me what Cliff has fixed with this. Awesome stuff!
 
NeoSound said:
I would describe the un-compensated ir's as sounding like (dull) midrange peanut butter smeared over the sound. It's very obvious to me what Cliff has fixed with this. Awesome stuff!
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in that one example, maybe. get any nice IR made with quality gear over the last 5 years and it could be better or worse. This is not automatically a better outcome... it's simply different. A different EQ applied to the sound.

Maybe create an IR to compensate for the room the IR was captured in is next... then it will be the true sound of the cab, unaffected. :D
 
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erockomania said:
in that one example, maybe. get any nice IR made with quality gear over the last 5 years and it could be better or worse. This is not automatically a better outcome... it's simply different. A different EQ applied to the sound.

Maybe create an IR to compensate for the room the IR was captured in is next... then it will be the true sound of the cab, unaffected. :D
Click to expand...

If realism is the goal then its definitely a better outcome.
 
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