Amp Shootout: Matrix GT800FX vs. VHT 2/90/2

DADAs previous amp was the Art, and he A/Bd them before letting the Art go. apparently there was quite a difference.

There is also more to consider than just cost, weight and tone. Theres quality. After seeing inside an Art, and the matrix, and a rocktron velocity - the internal layout, general quality of construction and components used in the Matrix are considerably better than the competition. I havent even tried a Carvin as there not generally available over here.

Its a bit like saying a Behringer power am is the same as a Bryson as long as they sound similar. Its just not a fair comparison.

i agree the Xchange rate make the Matrix much less of an option in the states - as the Carvin is less of an option here due to availability, but TBH the Matrix is at least 4 times the amp that the Art is from a design/build/quality perspective even if it sounds close enough for you.

id also say, that as a new amp there is always the possibility of something failing,but after seeing the quality I doubt it.

also the VHT v Matrix thing. For me it doesnt come down to cost - I already have the VHT so actually getting the Matrix is the more costly option :) it is based on tone - im pick too - and the Matrix was close enough, and the weight. At 3.7KG v 15KG it was no contest.

I think it would be good for Matrix to investigate the possibility of getting them made under license in the US. They wont make as much per unit - but the US price would be lower so there would be more units sold. id wager the actual profit for them would be greater doing it that way.
 
Soopahmahn said:
I bought the last DCM1000 from the Carvin warehouse because I didn't want an amp with a digital switching power supply (despite the amazing weight reduction). I'm not sure that it (or Cliff's) is a MOSFET design as it's not advertised as such in the manual, but it is a true class A/B amp with a massive torroidal transformer, which I hold in higher sonic regard than the new weight-saving switching power supplies, especially in the upper octaves.

I've listened to music through it into my hi-fi and it's not a bad amp. I prefer my old Rotel, but it's nice and clean and has loads of power.
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That raises two questions:
Is the GT800 using a switching power supply?
Is there a discernible difference for amplifying guitar?

Curious now...
 
Sonically theres no difference between a torroidal transformer and a switch mode PSU, as long as the SM is designed correctly. Power is power - simple, as long as its there when needed.

People get confused with the Digital tag. There is a hugh difference between digital amplification (that Class D amps get tagged with) and digital PSUs (that switch mode PSUs get tagged with). Basically as long as the amplification device is running in class A/B you woint here a difference what the PSU is.


Unfortunately MOST Class D amps (and class G come to that) have switch mode PSUs, and MOST Class A/B amps are torroidal - hence the confuson. the Matrix however, is class A/B and used a Switch mode PSU.
 
Yes the GT uses a switch mode power supply. Andy used to use/build the torroidals in previous amps but IIRC the amount of power is limited to size of the torroidal so therefore you increase the weight and also expense to increase the power. That's why the claims of the ART's power ratings have been called in to question as some feel they are using burst ratings rather than constant power.

May be a good idea to ask the technical questions with regards to Matrix on their Facebook page. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to acomodate.
 
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Nevertheless, I´m still waiting to see a comparison between Carvin vs. Matrix. Never seen anyone say they do not build quality and reliable amps. Steve Vai uses Carvin amps. Steve Vai uses the Axe-Fx. More importantly, Cliff Chase uses Carvin...
 
Paul and Lightningboy,

Thanks for the info. It´s good to know that, so switching PSU´s are the way to go, really. Cheaper and more efficient.
 
paulmapp8306 said:
I think it would be good for Matrix to investigate the possibility of getting them made under license in the US. They wont make as much per unit - but the US price would be lower so there would be more units sold. id wager the actual profit for them would be greater doing it that way.
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+1
As I like to say, 50 percent of F**k all, is still F**k all!
 
iggypop said:
Sixstring,

It would be great if you guys could do such a comparison. I´m very curious about that. Maybe other amps could achieve this 90-95% mark, you know? With the Rocktron V300 it was easy to get awesome tones using (cranking) its reactance/definition controls. Despite being cheap... albeit heavy for a 300W @8 ohms bridged. Now, with CArvin 1540L putting 1500W under just 14 lbs., we need to hear how well it fares against the GT800.
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I'm open to it but just like everything that has to do with this type of deal it all subject to the listeners ears. I would think in a group of people that are this discerning with regard to guitar tone it would be interesting to establish a "for the money" what you get and what is the best for the application your looking to go with.
 
Sixstring said:
I don't doubt your findings in the slightest and if I had the coin I would more then likely pick one up. I would love to shed a few more Lbs from the amp portion of my rig and I'm not questioning the quality at all, I saw the vid on how they were put together.

The price for the tone differences is what I was measuring. @ 90-95% of what the VHT is doing is great but at almost the same cost as a used VHT I don't know... Back when I bought the ART (almost 3 years ago) the main reason was to get rid of the weight and the cost the tube power amps brought and trying to do it with out braking the bank.

Now that you have a matrix it would be interesting to see how it sounds against an ART SLA-2 or Carvin 1540L or some of the less expensive SS options that are available here in the US. I know it's not quite the same but it would be cool to see how it sits using guitar cab and FR as well. Maybe if someone local has a 1540L we can all get together and see what the differences really are. I'm only about an hour or so from LA. I can supply the ART and a pair of Verve 12M's and a pair of home made rectifier style 112 guitar cabs loaded with Vin 30's. I would like to push them with different power amps to hear the difference, what do ya think?
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Now that is a great initiative! Claxor is getting busy. A/B testing is always the best thing to instead discussing the technical bits and bytes.

Sixstring rules again
 
iggypop said:
Nevertheless, I´m still waiting to see a comparison between Carvin vs. Matrix. Never seen anyone say they do not build quality and reliable amps. Steve Vai uses Carvin amps. Steve Vai uses the Axe-Fx. More importantly, Cliff Chase uses Carvin...
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Also don't for get in what application he is using it in (whatever that is). I will be the first to admit that certain power amps are better suited for certain applications in getting a faster result that sounds better to your ears ie: less tuning time.
 
DADA said:
Now that is a great initiative! Claxor is getting busy. A/B testing is always the best thing to instead discussing the technical bits and bytes.

Sixstring rules again
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Ha... thanks DADA 8),

I don't want to overwhelm Claxor with A/B parties but if he is up to it maybe we can set up a time that will work and benefit users with useful info.

Tech talk will only get you so far and it is good to have the data but you still need to know the end result and it would help to be able to put a bang for the buck or an over the top solution no mater the cost ;).
 
Count me as one of the forumites that would be very appreciative of your efforts with this, and the reports thereafter. :)
 
paulmapp8306 said:
Sonically theres no difference between a torroidal transformer and a switch mode PSU, as long as the SM is designed correctly. Power is power - simple, as long as its there when needed.
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Well, theoretically yes, they are the same, but in reality there is a bit of difference in how they behave. An SMPS can regulate its supply voltage at nominal no matter what the load. A linear power supply's voltage will dip when load gets heavy because it has no feedback loop like the SMPS. The voltage dip is equivalent to the "sag" parameter in your Axe-Fx. It equals increased THD as the output signal clips due to the supply rails dipping.

Unfortunately MOST Class D amps (and class G come to that) have switch mode PSUs, and MOST Class A/B amps are torroidal - hence the confuson. the Matrix however, is class A/B and used a Switch mode PSU.
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Why is it unfortunate for a class D amp to use an SMPS?
 
qingcong said:
Well, theoretically yes, they are the same, but in reality there is a bit of difference in how they behave. An SMPS can regulate its supply voltage at nominal no matter what the load. A linear power supply's voltage will dip when load gets heavy because it has no feedback loop like the SMPS. The voltage dip is equivalent to the "sag" parameter in your Axe-Fx. It equals increased THD as the output signal clips due to the supply rails dipping.
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I haven't made the decision yet, but have been tempted by the Carvin DCM2000L. I suspect that for my application the thing will have enough headroom that I won't experience clipping of any kind. I'm happy with my sound, but wouldn't mind the reduced weight and heat of this amp vs. the Mesa 2:90 I have now. I have as much romance with tubes as the next guy, except when I'm carrying them or buying replacements. ;)
 
yek said:
Smilefan,
Since there's no TC30 mic in the Ownhammer EVM-12L and Mesa sets yet, which mic or mix do you use instead?
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With the Ownhammer Boogafunk EVM I liked MM4 option. I didn't like the Ownhammer Mesa set as much as the Redwirez version. The RW Mesa has IR samples using the KM84 mic, which is pretty close to being a 'null' mic, like the TC-30.
 
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qingcong said:
Aside from the physical attributes - lightweight, high power, 1U size, what makes the Matrix a more ideal amp tonewise for the Axe-Fx than any other hifi, linear power amp?
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It is in the 'ideal' neighborhood because it does not react under the fingers like a hifi, linear power amp.
It seems to 'bounce' and compress with pick pressure like a tube amp. In my early experiments with
the Axe, I once tried it thru a $3000 audiophile solid state power amp. It sounded unbearably stiff
and hard. The Matrix reacts better to guitar-y frequencies than any S/S amp I've yet heard.
 
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qingcong said:
Well, theoretically yes, they are the same, but in reality there is a bit of difference in how they behave. An SMPS can regulate its supply voltage at nominal no matter what the load. A linear power supply's voltage will dip when load gets heavy because it has no feedback loop like the SMPS. The voltage dip is equivalent to the "sag" parameter in your Axe-Fx. It equals increased THD as the output signal clips due to the supply rails dipping.
Click to expand...

Not in a good quality amp though - which is the point. A well designed amp would be designed with a large enough torroidal transformer so that it always produces the required current - regardless of useage. that means you dont get that sag. if your getting it then actually the amp is not up to the job it was designed for. Now that might sound nice to us guitarists, but doesnt alter the fact it would not be a well great design.
 
I've tried 4 different amps- Peavey Classic 50/50, Mesa Dyna-watt 20/20 - Carvin DCM150 and a Rocktron Velocity 100, (sold my Marshall 9200 to partially fund the Axe) with 3 different cabs and two different speaker types tried in one cab (all in stereo). I only play low to medium volumes and that also changes things.
First I think the cab and speaker can alter the sound even more than the power amps I've tried.
The 50/50 would probably be my choice if it wasn't for the weight, I'm not sure how it would compare to the VHT but it does have presence and resonance. I think as far as volume it was at least as loud as the 9200. but I'm 45 now and lighter is almost always better. I'm using the Mesa 20/20 at the moment in my rack... it has warm clear tube power but does slightly color the sound compared to the 50/50. I can tweek things in the AXE and with the DCM150 I can get pretty close to the tube amps tone .... I would also say 90-95%. The only fault I have with this amp is that it needs a little more power... I noticed Carvin now has a revamped DCM200 based off the 150 (says improved?).... as far as the Velocity 100 it doesn't have the extra controls for presence? definition? as the 300 (only volume) and the sound thru it sounds compressed and filtered and no matter what I tried it didn't sound as good as the others. As far as the Matrix I would definatly try one if there were a US distributor.
I'm still experimenting and thinking about 2 passive Atomics? but the Axe II has kinda moved that to the back burner :)

Theres some awesome info in this thread ...... hope to hear more, .....Donnie
 
smilefan said:
With the Ownhammer Boogafunk EVM I liked MM4 option. I didn't like the Ownhammer Mesa set as much as the Redwirez version. The RW Mesa has IR samples using the KM84 mic, which is pretty close to being a 'null' mic, like the TC-30.
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Thanks. And coincedently, I just got a mail from Ownhammer announcing the addition of TC30s to the last remaining sets (Mesa, EVM). :)
 
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