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V6 firmware: Time to Release the Monster - Speaker Resonance Page

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
But I'm not talking about two 8ohm speakers. A standard Marshall 4x12 cab has FOUR 16ohm speakers wired in series parallel resulting in a 16ohm cab.
Same thing. Two 16-ohm speakers in parallel is equivalent to one 8-ohm.

The inductance always tracks the resistance. If you double the resistance, you double the inductance.
 

Gamedojo

Power User
Same thing. Two 16-ohm speakers in parallel is equivalent to one 8-ohm.

The inductance always tracks the resistance. If you double the resistance, you double the inductance.
Ah! Thanks for the quick reply!

At the beginning I thought the Scott/Jay settings were stuffy sounding, I should have just trusted my Ears:) I'm going to go ahead and setup all my amp blocks X/Y with the stock and Scott/Jay settings to really find out which one works best for me.
 

nater

Experienced
I'm going to go ahead and setup all my amp blocks X/Y with the stock and Scott/Jay settings to really find out which one works best for me.
If you're going to go through the work on this, would be great if you posted a video of the A/B'ing, or X/Y'ing in this case. If not no big deal, a lot can be lost in the You Tube translation anyways, but many folks here (including myself) might benefit to hear the differences.

And, yes I know I could just do it myself and I have in some ways already, but sometimes there's a benefit to being a spectator/listener on some tests, rather than being involved in the actual testing....
 

Gamedojo

Power User
Well this gets weird. Jay Mitchell over at the gearpage seems to think Cliff is making things up that have nothing to do with the speaker impedance behavior:

The term "critical frequency" has nothing to do with loudspeaker impedance behavior. I have no idea where Cliff came up with the term, but it is meaningless in this context. Additionally, there is no "high frequency resonance" in a transducer, so that phrase is also without meaning.

Then the factory defaults meet your "definition of extreme." I've made my living doing loudspeaker R&D for the past 30 years, and I know whereof I speak in such matters. Cliff provided the tools required - in the form of user-adjustable (if poorly-named) parameters - to get pretty close to realistic behavior. In the amp sims I use, the default settings are not especially close to realistic. however.
any truth to this?
 

Kriig

Fractal Fanatic
Amps sounded good way before i knew what ohm was. I know a lot more now, but i won't let that stand in the way of my guitar sounding good.

The know-how engineer stuff can mess it up you know (MAYBE unless you really understand)... IMHO.... Cliff knows what and how to use it. I just play. Works great for me.... I don't wanna know why.. As long as it works for me...
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Well this gets weird. Jay Mitchell over at the gearpage seems to think Cliff is making things up that have nothing to do with the speaker impedance behavior:



any truth to this?
I call it critical frequency since it is similar to the critical or corner frequency of a filter. I had to come up with some way of setting the loudspeaker inductance relative to the resistance. Frequency seemed to make more sense. I thought about an inductance parameter but figured that would be too nebulous. At the default settings the impedance rise of the simulated voice coil matches very close with published data. I have overlaid the modeled impedance curve with published data and it is a very good fit.

For example, take the JCM800 model. The graph on the SPKR page has a scale of +20 dB at the top. Look at the response at 2kHz. It's roughly 1/4 of full-scale which equates to 5 dB. If we look at the impedance curve for a typical 8-ohm speaker we see that the impedance at 2 kHz is roughly 13 ohms. For a 6.5 ohm voice coil (typical) this means that the voltage at the speaker is 6 dB higher at 2 kHz. Pretty darn close to what the graph is showing.

While there is no high-frequency resonance in the speaker itself, a resonance IS formed due to the winding capacitance of the transformer. This capacitance resonates with the voice-coil inductance. Jay likes to brag about his experience yet he seems to miss some pretty basic concepts.
 

VegaBaby

Fractal Fanatic
try the factory settings, try scott's settings, and make a call
well, that's what sums it up, doesn't it :)

what I forgot to mention though is that I definitely took inspiration from Scott's post. IIRC, Cliff mentioned that the stock default settings are set to match the cabs most likely to be used with that amp. now that may not always be the case. so I started to simply adjust only the Low Res Freq to closer match the speaker I'm using and that gave me great results. so with regards to that...thumbs up to Scott for bringing these parameters back to my attention.
 

Gamedojo

Power User
If you're going to go through the work on this, would be great if you posted a video of the A/B'ing, or X/Y'ing in this case. If not no big deal, a lot can be lost in the You Tube translation anyways, but many folks here (including myself) might benefit to hear the differences.

And, yes I know I could just do it myself and I have in some ways already, but sometimes there's a benefit to being a spectator/listener on some tests, rather than being involved in the actual testing....
Here you go. I'm not adding any comment just putting them out there. Same everything except Speaker Settings (amp was originally tweaked for Scott/Jay settings)

Setting P

Setting F

....Jay likes to brag about his experience yet he seems to miss some pretty basic concepts.
Oh dear, don't let Jay see this post. You'll unleash a firestorm. That guy's ego could kill small mammals! :)

Thanks for the rundown. I'm more inclined to go with your directions simply because you invented the damn thing, but its always an interesting discussion when you get to the details.
 
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yek

Moderator
Moderator
I guess a lot of us do not have the knowledge required to apply this info.
I know I don't. So we're looking for a simple formula / rule we can use.

Here's mine. I use a real cab with a greenback-remake. And for the direct tone I always use the same greenback IR.
So I wrote down the stock resonance settings of the Axe-Fx Plexi amp sim (commonly used with greenback speakers). I adjusted LFR.
I apply these to all my amp sims.
Simple and consistent. Does improve my tones noticeably.
 

cobbler

Fractal Fanatic
well, that's what sums it up, doesn't it :)

what I forgot to mention though is that I definitely took inspiration from Scott's post. IIRC, Cliff mentioned that the stock default settings are set to match the cabs most likely to be used with that amp. now that may not always be the case. so I started to simply adjust only the Low Res Freq to closer match the speaker I'm using and that gave me great results. so with regards to that...thumbs up to Scott for bringing these parameters back to my attention.
+1010101

I think that was Scott's intention all along. Not to describe some definitive formula but to toss out what works for him and maybe get others to experiment with parameters they may otherwise be afraid to even consider touching. I am not much of an advanced parameter guy but I do enjoy learning about all this stuff and ultimately down the road we will all be better off having an understanding of how things work and how to apply it to our own needs. For those who just like to plug and play the defaults are there and it’s simply not an issue.

It’s all about learning the box and trusting your ears. Ultimately, we all hear a little differently and have many different scenarios equipment wise. If that wasn’t the case we wouldn’t see all the clip wars. I sincerely appreciate the time everyone takes to express their opinions and impart their knowledge. That doesn’t mean I take it as gospel. Live, learn, and experiment! Then repeat...
 

Piing

Power User
Hi Scott, Cliff & Co.! Thank you for your great work, and to all the contributors.

I am waiting for my Axe FX II (I just bought it two days ago on Ebay) but I have been playing a lot with the Axe-Edit (like when you practice piano with a mute keyboard, to not bother the neighbors :lol) and the Speaker Resonance Page is one of the most exciting new features that I have "silently" found. I am impatiently willing to play with those Critical Frequencies!!! (and back to the forum after a long time)

Cheers!
 
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Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
Here you go. I'm not adding any comment just putting them out there. Same everything except Speaker Settings (amp was originally tweaked for Scott/Jay settings)

Setting P

Setting F
Mmmm, well... Setting P sounds like poop. Please shoot me the preset and let me actually tweak it in. I guarantee it would not sound like "Setting P". Note the OP settings are *starting points* and frankly not one of my own actual presets mirrors the initial settings suggested in the OP once they are done. Not one. I'll tweak the preset up, you can cut the clip and replace your "Setting P" version with it. Deal? ;) :D
 

guitardoc

Experienced
Mmmm, well... Setting P sounds like poop. Please shoot me the preset and let me actually tweak it in. I guarantee it would not sound like "Setting P". Note the OP settings are *starting points* and frankly not one of my own actual presets mirrors the initial settings suggested in the OP once they are done. Not one. I'll tweak the preset up, you can cut the clip and replace your "Setting P" version with it. Deal? ;) :D
@Scott:
I was wondering if it was possible for you to post the amp settings in correlation to the selected cabs and their respective settings in the tweaked up presets? Most of us just do not have the deep-in knowledge which is certainly necessary to get the most out of all these parameters and are lost which way to go from your starting point. Thank you!
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Hi Scott, Cliff & Co.! Thank you for your great work, and to all the contributors.

I am waiting for my Axe FX II (I just bought it two days ago on Ebay) but I have been playing a lot with the Axe-Edit (like when you practice piano with a mute keyboard, to not bother the neighbors :lol) and the Speaker Resonance Page is one of the most exciting new features that I have "silently" found. I am impatiently willing to play with those Critical Frequencies!!! (and back to the forum after a long time)

Cheers!
Piing is back!
 
Thank God for the Thai guy. We narrowly averted a glove-throwing, full-on nerd fight up in here. :lol

So, after going back and forth, I'm finding that moving the low frequency around and using Scott's method seems to work really well for opening up the low end response when using different speakers. For the high end, I'm adjusting from the 1500-1600 level and moving the amount up and down until it's less sharp, and more pleasantly fizzy to my ears. I can get a similar effect at 2900, but it's a little more muffled for the DI recording (even after lots of modifications to the patch). The mids... well... haven't really gone into that yet. I've got more writing to do today, so I'm sure I'll be popping in here with more info again. I won't have my new strings in until Monday or Tuesday, so no serious recording until at least that point.

What I'd like to see is someone really going in depth and posting some recordings of both settings after they've masterfully tweaked both ways. Right now all we've really got is anecdotal evidence to support one claim or another... some double blinds might be nice (nudge, nudge, Scott).
 

Gamedojo

Power User
Mmmm, well... Setting P sounds like poop. Please shoot me the preset and let me actually tweak it in. I guarantee it would not sound like "Setting P". Note the OP settings are *starting points* and frankly not one of my own actual presets mirrors the initial settings suggested in the OP once they are done. Not one. I'll tweak the preset up, you can cut the clip and replace your "Setting P" version with it. Deal? ;) :D
1) its funny that you think P is your settings because it sounds like crap
2) If your original post was ONLY about a starting point, then you should have just posted RANGES you've used, not exact numbers.
3) My two Clips are a fare comparison because its the axefx's STOCK settings vs. your STOCK settings without claiming which is which (to help with your mind playing games on you). You've claimed your settings and the stock settings are a starting point and the demo was just to show the audio difference of the two starting points (by request by a forum member btw)
4) Sending you the preset to tweak until your happy makes little sense to me. Rather, why don't you take your favorite preset and record, then set it to stock fractal settings, record, THEN set it to your original start settings. This will show the difference between your start settings and your end result.

In the end, if the numbers you posted in your original post sounds like "Poo" right out the gate, thats a pretty bad starting point.... especially when you consider the stock settings of the axe don't sound like "poo". The ultimate question is whats the point of your starting point vs. the stock starting point? What are you gaining by starting with your numbers if they don't sound good?

I'd highly recommend you revisit your OP and remove the numbers you gave. Instead, look at each of your personal presets, and find the Max and MIn value of EACH setting of all your patches, and post ranges of each of the settings. Ranges will A) force people not to use a specific bad sounding setting and B)will show right away that your intention is to TWEAK and not set and forget.
 
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lbrunet

Member
I thought Setting P, and Setting F were pretty obvious (Peterson, Fractal). In any case, the OP was pretty clear that it was a starting point and I can't thank Scott enough for at the very least, getting me to explore the advanced speaker page. All I had read from Fractal was that the parameters were very powerful, but that's about it and I lacked the understanding to really explore them aside from blindly turning knobs. Maybe I don't understand them any better now, but at least the OP got me in there and adjusting things with some form of guidance. These forum threads are invaluable to me, and I imagine they are to others as well.
 
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