Tone is in your fingers debate

solo-act said:
Paint is not in the fingers of the painter
Clay is not in the fingers of the sculptor
Fire is not in the breath of the flame throwing artist
And TONE is NOT in the fingers of the guitar player

I give up...
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You give up because you are inaccurately applying art metaphors.

For example, paint is not in the fingers, but the stroke and application of the paint certainly is in the fingers manipulating the brush or knife - the latter skills of the fingers are what we recognize when discussing a skilled painter rather than which titanium white he decided to use.

Clay medium is not in the fingers of the sculptor, but certainly the manipulation, pressure, and smoothing gestures which shape the clay are in the fingers and hands of the sculptor. Those efforts are what we are talking about when discussing a sculptor's output more so than the quantity of rough clay he acquired.

Etc.
 
solo-act said:
No.
No.
No.
No.
Paint is not in the fingers of the painter
Clay is not in the fingers of the sculptor
Fire is not in the breath of the flame throwing artist
And tone is not in the fingers of the guitar player

Paint, clay, pastel, chalk, stone, ice, tone...each is a medium. The artist manipulates the medium. In our case, with hands/fingers.

What is about this simple, simple concept that isn't sinking in?

I give up...
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Sorry I wasn't trying to upset you, it has sunk in believe me... for me it is more about the non generalization of the word than anything else.
 
Keep in mind that almost every single word has multiple meanings, especially in English. Pick up a dictionary and look some common words up. Here's the word TONE:

tone |tōn|

noun

1 a musical or vocal sound with reference to its pitch, quality, and strength: the piano tone appears monochrome or lacking in warmth.

• a modulation of the voice expressing a particular feeling or mood: a firm tone of voice.

• a musical note, warble, or other sound used as a particular signal on a telephone or answering machine.

2 the general character or attitude of a place, piece of writing, situation, etc.: trust her to lower the tone of the conversation | there was a general tone of ill-concealed glee in the reporting.

• informal an atmosphere of respectability or class: they don't feel he gives the place tone.

3 Phonetics (in some languages, such as Chinese) a particular pitch pattern on a syllable used to make semantic distinctions.

• Phonetics (in some languages, such as English) intonation on a word or phrase used to add functional meaning.

4 (also whole tone)a basic interval in classical Western music, equal to two semitones and separating, for example, the first and second notes of an ordinary scale (such as C and D, or E and F sharp); a major second or whole step.

5 the particular quality of brightness, deepness, or hue of a tint or shade of a color: an attractive color that is even in tone and texture | stained glass in vivid tones of red and blue.

• the general effect of color or of light and shade in a picture.

• a slight degree of difference in the intensity of a color.

6 (also muscle tone)the normal level of firmness or slight contraction in a resting muscle.

• Physiology the normal level of activity in a nerve fiber.
 
So given the above, depending on the definition you are applying, the force a note is played, the directness of the attack or position of the finger to the fret, the position of the pick, hammer on or pulling off - all kind of physical factors determine the tone of the guitar, let alone the actual instrument itself. You play an acoustic guitar lightly or weakly and have a soft or weak tone. You can attack the strings very forcefully and get a strong tone.
 
kgk said:
You can EQ anything, but EQ cannot control the "fingerprint" of a guitarist, and that comes through in two ways, vibrato (left hand) and pick attack (right hand). I think the single most critical factor to discern guitarists is the pick attack, and particularly the transients.
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Makes sense, but incomplete. Their is much more to technique than vibrato and pick attack. What about pull offs, muting, bending correctly and accurately, etc, etc, etc. Just sayin.

Ah, Henry, didn't see your post until after I posted....
 
solo-act said:
No.
No.
No.
No.
Paint is not in the fingers of the painter
Clay is not in the fingers of the sculptor
Fire is not in the breath of the flame throwing artist
And tone is not in the fingers of the guitar player

Paint, clay, pastel, chalk, stone, ice, tone...each is a medium. The artist manipulates the medium. In our case, with hands/fingers.

What is about this simple, simple concept that isn't sinking in?

I give up...
Click to expand...
Maybe I misunderstood this. Paint is not in the fingers. But the fingers control the color, texture, lines. Meaning that the artist does. The paint doesn’t control the art, the artist does. Like with playing guitar. The tone, as in color, is controlled by the artist through the training of his aesthetic choices and technical ability of the fingers.
 
Step 1: Lay a piece of dead equine meat in a visible place. One effective way to do this is to state an absolute that cannot be entirely true, but must be partially true. State it in terms that are ambiguous enough to ensure that it is impossible for anyone to establish a common logical focal point, and which will make agreement appear to be disagreement.

Step 2: Stand back and watch the meat get pummeled.


:)
 
someone today on facebook on the axe fx group posted a video of him playing my favorite guitarists guitar, through his entire rig/set up... it sounded like the worst crap I've ever heard in my life-it was embarrassingly horrible

I've also had the chance to play MY GUITAR through his rig- tone is in the fingers
 
FractalAudio said:
Somewhere in the last decade everything became binary. It's either yes or no, 0 or 1, black or white. Why can't it be both?
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Because we live in a time of absolutes. There is no more gray, only black and white.

I've once played a Rage Against the Machine tribute gig. I know exactly what Tom Morello does, I had a JCM 800 amp like him, a pedal board with the same pedals. And yet I can't seem to get that Bulls on Parade scratching record sound that he makes. That was the day I truly understood that while gear helps a lot, tone does reside in the fingers. Or even mind of the guitar player. And why some of the best tribute guitar players are less concerned with recreating the exact gear setups of their heroes, and more what produces the best results. Even if it is produced differently.
 
I will believe that "tone is in the fingers" when I hear somebody make an open G chord on a Fender Telecaster straight into a Fender Twin sound like a Les Paul with EMGs into a 5150 with a delay and chorus in the loop.

Until then, I'll believe the truth, which is that "expression is in the fingers, while tone is in the guitar, pickups, amp, effects, cabling, power, room you're playing in, mic, recording preamp, post effects, etc."

ALSO, a bad player can make a good rig sound bad and a good player can make a bad rig sound good, but that's because what we consider to mean "sounding good" has a lot less to do with the tone than we might think. Music is about the expression of emotion, after all. So this means that the way you express yourself through your instrument is going to be more important than a bunch of gain stages, filters, and effects, etc.

However, in the same way that no matter how hard I press the gas pedal on a VW van, I'm not going to be able to win with it in a Formula 1 race, no matter how I hit that G chord on a tele into a Twin, I'm not going to be able to make it sound like a 5150.

So no, "tone" is not in the fingers, but the way you express yourself through your instrument, which is by far the most important part of playing, definitely is.
 
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So clearly you've cornered the truth. So all things said by Great Green are the truth and nothing but the truth. But clearly, I believe the truth is in the hands. All those accessories are details that come later and help shape the overall finished tone. But as I said, you can't GET THERE unless it's in your hands FIRST. You can play Robben Fords Dumble, but you ain't gonna sound like Robben Ford, unless you PLAY like Robben Ford.
 
GreatGreen said:
I will believe that "tone is in the fingers" when I hear somebody make an open G chord on a Fender Telecaster straight into a Fender Twin sound like a Les Paul with EMGs into a 5150 with a delay and chorus in the loop.

Until then, I'll believe the truth, which is that "expression is in the fingers, while tone is in the guitar, pickups, amp, effects, cabling, power, room you're playing in, mic, recording preamp, post effects, etc."

ALSO, a bad player can make a good rig sound bad and a good player can make a bad rig sound good, but that's because what we consider to mean "sounding good" has a lot less to do with the tone than we might think. Music is about the expression of emotion, after all. So this means that the way you express yourself through your instrument is going to be more important than a bunch of gain stages, filters, and effects, etc.

However, in the same way that no matter how hard I press the gas pedal on a VW van, I'm not going to be able to win with it in a Formula 1 race, no matter how I hit that G chord on a tele into a Twin, I'm not going to be able to make it sound like a 5150.

So no, "tone" is not in the fingers, but the way you express yourself through your instrument, which is by far the most important part of playing, definitely is.
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Sorry but your analogies are a bit too basic really. Who's talking about playing a G chord, 1st position? No one in this thread. Of course me playing that G chord and Guthrie playing that G chord, and doing nothing else but strum it once would sound the same. I know plenty of people who have so much heart and sound like crap. Your expression and feelings\heart need some talent to go with it. Hence your technique\style, how ever you phrase it. Also you are pretty much contradicting yourself with your last sentence. Just sayin.........
 
After watching thousands of guitarists live, I will say that I've watched an accomplished guitarist sound great through an expensive rig, but not move me, and watched a 'untrained' guitarist play through a combo with a knockoff guitar and blow my socks off.

Call it 'fingers' if you like, but it's all about talent. All the practice in the world will not help make you a great guitarist...only talent will. The ability to 'hear' what sounds good, and translate that to fingers.

I played in a band in High School. One guitarist was completely oblivious to anything 'technically' musical. Notes, forms, scales...pretty much anything involved with the cerebral aspect of music making. The other guitarist was well trained. Note for note on cover songs, well practiced on various picking forms, chord structure, etc. Night after night, the 'untrained' guy got the vote in the audience as the better guitarist. There was a certain something that he brought to the band that spoke to the audience. It made a mark on me that all the training in the world does nothing if you don't 'have it'...translates to 'talent.'

Jimmy Page doesn't have great technique...he's downright sloppy most of the time...but he 'nails it'.
 
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