Tone is in your fingers debate

Sixstring

Legend!
So I got into the dreaded "tone is in your fingers" debate the other day with a fellow guitar player. Good lord how this can it be such a divided issue.

I'm of the camp that tone is primarily a function of EQ and not so much your hands, though I will admit how you play (technique or style) can affect tone to a degree!

We went back and forth with the same examples of if Eddie plays through a gorilla amp bla bla bla, for a few minutes on the subject to which I finished off with ok so let's take out all the bass and midrange in your amp and let's see how the tone in your fingers will make your guitar cut better in a mix? to which I got a blank stare with a change of subject!

I just smiled and said that tone is just an over generalized use of the word in the guitar world and the person that came up with the term probably had a little too much to smoke.
 
Yeah I agree for the most part, people carry it a bit to far. Things that can affect the tone however as far as picks: gauge, materials, shape, The angle the pick is held at and were the person is actually picking: by the neck by the bridge in between and so on.

Your hands muting is what effects tone. Not “in the fingers”. I’d say it’s about ten percent.
I would consider this a technique thing, I guess this is were some of the wars get going.
Things like vibrato on single notes and chords things like that I would also consider technique.
 
Lately I have been on a Boston kick, again... and listing to the way Barry and Tom play is different but you can hear that they were trying to play with the same style as too have a somewhat cohesive sound.

The cocked Wah tone is very specific, unique and I guess iconic with respect to Boston very noticeable when compared to a basic rock tone in general.
 
I believe your not giving playing with your fingers ala Mark Knofler, Robben Ford, many others, etc a fair shake. Definitely in the tone. To say only muting changes tone is really not true. May be true for "some". Your skill level, abilities, once again mainly technique are huge, ala Guthrie, Hendrix, whoever, etc.Technique, as mentioned by others here is it. It encompasses pretty much all of a players left and right hand.
If I had known way back when, I would never have picked up a pick. But that's just me of course.
I agree with you guys when the discussions get out of hand and some are convinced if you don'y have so and so's fingers, hands, you cannot play this or that.
 
I believe your not giving playing with your fingers ala Mark Knofler, Robben Ford, many others, etc a fair shake. Definitely in the tone. To say only muting changes tone is really not true. May be true for "some". Your skill level, abilities, once again mainly technique are huge, ala Guthrie, Hendrix, whoever, etc.Technique, as mentioned by others here is it. It encompasses pretty much all of a players left and right hand.
If I had known way back when, I would never have picked up a pick. But that's just me of course.
I agree with you guys when the discussions get out of hand and some are convinced if you don'y have so and so's fingers, hands, you cannot play this or that.

Was your post in reference to my OP? I did give a nod to players that have a certain technique or style of playing admitting it does change the tone to a degree, darker rounder whatever your favorite adjective is. But wouldn't you agree that all of the players you have mentioned would need good EQ settings on their amps in order to sound right regardless of what they use to pick the string with?
 
interesting debate. Crap guitar thru a crap amp , with a crap cabinet is.... Going to sound like crap. Eddie , whoever , is IMO going to sound like crap.

Does technique matter , yah big time. I've played in a band where the other guitar player's sound was terrible. - Terrible like , wow , let me see your guitar and rig , ....play it , and it sounds like a million bucks , then hand the guitar back and try to nonchalantly forget I ever wanted to see what was wrong.
...or when teaching my son to play , and his cheap guitar and amp sound kind of bad , I take it from him and play , and he realizes he just needs to practice more.
So , .... both.
 
But wouldn't you agree that all of the players you have mentioned would need good EQ settings on their amps in order to sound right regardless of what they use to pick the string with?
this may be the issue in this discussion. you can't have an amp set to "horrible" and then expect great tone.

i don't think the expression "tone is in the fingers" is a 100% argument meaning that 0% is in the amp. it's a saying meaning that the resulting tone of the good players is because of how they play, not ONLY the amp settings.

i've heard and seen time and time again where a person plays the rig of a guitar god - the exact rig they use, setup at a show - and the person playing the rig does not sound "at all" like the guitar god. the final result definitely has to do with how a person controls the strings: muting, when to unmute, how they pick, bends, vibrato - it's all a factor in the resulting tone.

i don't think this is a debate at all. "tone is in the fingers" isn't a challenging statement.
 
this may be the issue in this discussion. you can't have an amp set to "horrible" and then expect great tone.

i don't think the expression "tone is in the fingers" is a 100% argument meaning that 0% is in the amp. it's a saying meaning that the resulting tone of the good players is because of how they play, not ONLY the amp settings.

i've heard and seen time and time again where a person plays the rig of a guitar god - the exact rig they use, setup at a show - and the person playing the rig does not sound "at all" like the guitar god. the final result definitely has to do with how a person controls the strings: muting, when to unmute, how they pick, bends, vibrato - it's all a factor in the resulting tone.

i don't think this is a debate at all. "tone is in the fingers" isn't a challenging statement.

Everything you have pointed out pretty much relates to Style or technique which does affect tone but nothing like EQ does.
 
Everything you have pointed out pretty much relates to Style or technique which does affect tone but nothing like EQ does.
but if Style affects tone AND EQ affects tone, then you can't say either statement

tone is in the eq
tone is in the fingers

since Tone comes from both, this whole thing isn't a debate. have you changed the statement to "which affects tone more"?
 
Expression is in your fingers.
Tone is in your rig.
Your fingers/hands influence & manipulate tone coming out of the rig.

IMO saying tone is in your fingers is like saying color is IN a painter's fingers...nonsensical BS.
i agree, great way to put it. but i think it comes down to the definition of "tone." some of us are using it as an all-encompassing word, while others are being very literal with it. if you're being literal, of course "tone" doesn't come from your hands (well, still slightly, how you press, how you bend, etc). but with a more general usage of the word, yes, tone (which includes style, finess, etc) does come from the fingers indeed.

again, we're trying to describe sounds with words - that rarely ever succeeds fully.
 
but if Style affects tone AND EQ affects tone, then you can't say either statement

tone is in the eq
tone is in the fingers

since Tone comes from both, this whole thing isn't a debate. have you changed the statement to "which affects tone more"?
Which if you read my OP I stated that "tone is primarily a function of EQ" as to how much would depend on your style or technique. I would bet a lot a cash that I can affect the tone of your guitar sound a lot more with EQ then switching what you pick with or how fret.
 
I can affect the tone of your guitar sound a lot more with EQ then switching what you pick with or how fret.
i agree that you can affect tone with EQ more than with changing picks or fretting technique. EQ can affect the entire audio spectrum that we can perceive, more than just a pick change can do.

but to me this is less opinion (argument) and more of fact or truth. i've seen with my own eyes the situation i described above, and the "john petrucci sound" or "steve vai sound" was NOT there when someone else played JP's or Vai's exact rig and guitar. no EQ changes needed. (just using those names as an example.)

can i EQ anyone's current rig to sound bad? sure. but can i EQ anyone's rig to sound like John Petrucci exactly? nope. only if they use the same techniques as him.
 
i agree that you can affect tone with EQ more than with changing picks or fretting technique. EQ can affect the entire audio spectrum that we can perceive, more than just a pick change can do.

but to me this is less opinion (argument) and more of fact or truth. i've seen with my own eyes the situation i described above, and the "john petrucci sound" or "steve vai sound" was NOT there when someone else played JP's or Vai's exact rig and guitar. no EQ changes needed. (just using those names as an example.)

can i EQ anyone's current rig to sound bad? sure. but can i EQ anyone's rig to sound like John Petrucci exactly? nope. only if they use the same techniques as him.

Yes! and this is to my point... maybe my wording is not the greatest, the terminology that has been so loosely used is the part that people take to the grave and are unbending when it comes to this phrase "tone is in the fingers" it's such a misused term and a half truth at best but also a great debating topic because of it!
 
I have an example I use that blew me away. One of the many things I do is I teach guitar in prisons. We were auditioning for a few inmate bands. When auditioning singers, bass players or drummers, keyboardists, I played guitar. But when auditioning a guitar player, I sat out and took notes. I used the in-house Strat and a Fender Twin. I didn't pay too much attention to the EQ. It was just a functioning amp/guitar. I had one guy who loved the way I played, marked down all of my settings, yet I never even paid attention to my settings.

One guy came up and took the guitar and played. He sounded terrible. OUT of TUNE and just terrible. I asked my assistant, another free man, whether I sounded like that. He said you sounded NOTHING like that. "You sounded great!" I thanked him. Night and day, which is what I hoped he would say.

The other guy who copied down all of my settings always sounded like him. And I sound like me no matter what guitar or amp I use. Now of course, if you're playing metal or grunge, or rock, tone has a LOT to do with amps, pedals, string gauge, guitars. But I still maintain it has to START with your hands. Not just your fingers. I suspect you'd recognize Guthrie Govan even if he were playing acoustically.

I believe 75% of the sound emanates from your hands. If you can't play, no guitar or amp combination is going to make you sound good. And certainly not going to help make you sound like Pagey, or whomever. I think the chasing gear as a solution for finding the lost tone thing, is a lazy person's quest. Playing guitar is hard work. I think it's more work than most guitar players expect or plan on.

My two cents.
 
And then as an engineer, I had guys follow a local and successful band, and copied all of their settings, rented their amps, played similar guitars and still sounded like shit. I TOLD them, but they didn't listen. They blamed me because they sounded like shit. LOL.
 
@Sixstring .....Yes I agree that eq fx tone. Of course it does. But I just feel that technique is every bit as important. Listen to Joe B or Mark Knofler or any of the finger playing guys with Great technique when they play an acoustic.
Their technique is where the sound is coming from. Their acoustics do NOT sound like mine I'm talkin' sitting in Normans and playing. I don't mean the complexity of what they play, but the style\technique they transfer to their instrument and the sound coming out.

:) I really think we agree, SS, I just give more points to technique than you do. That's about it.
 
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