Recently purchased an Ultra or Standard?

[Raven]

Insider trading is the trading of stocks/shares/bonds etc, not really electrical equipment.

You would have a difficult legal case to proceed with should you want to get litigious.

This next statement is irrelevant but I found it interesting when I learned it:
Insider trading isn't illegal everywhere.
For instance in russia, they don't call it insider trading, but rather just 'trading'- at least until 2010 it was- I heard about new laws coming in.
It is normal business practice in some places.

Insider trading covers the trading of stock by individuals with potential access to non-public information about the company. Electrical goods do count as stock surely!? Maybe I'm wrong, it's not important really. ....anyway, I have no will whatsoever to pursue anything. I have great respect for Cliff & wish Fractal nothing but success, you're taking the post out of context. My point is that ethically a fine line is being walked here & poo-hooing newer users who are disappointed that our relatively new units are not going to be allowed access to future content isn't very fair.

 

[octatonic]

Ok, cry sour grapes if you like but the upgrade path wasn't such a marketing tool and an important thing for me I wouldn't be complaining. Hell I wouldn't be complaining if the Axe-II shipped with a built in kick ass stereo power amp and free MFC-101. The point is I bought into and for a product which would evolve and that seems to have halted 1 month after I got it. Oh and mine was new not used. I am a software engineer by trade and intrinsically understand that things become outdated/deprecated but this is a little hard to take, at least offering some of the new tech to be used in a limited way would be appreciated. This thing has twice the power, well I suspect it is easily possible to make the Ultra run a simple Amp->Cab set-up from the new set (my main usage of the unit) or effects on their own without amp or cab modelling as slight upgrade compensation (please note I do understand this is an over simplification but comparing the specs of the old versus new units if the ultra couldn't run simple chains of the II then the II is already also at it's limit). If they did that, I'd happilly shut up and be grateful.

From what I've seen most people aren't running the Ultra anywhere near its limit.
Looking at the patches that show up online people are using one amp model with a bit of modulated delay and verb, with a wah and drive pedal on the front end, maybe some other modulation (flange/phase etc).
Not exactly pushing creative boundaries.

It very much seems to me that this isn't about having a workable, useful tool for musical expression, but rather having the latest toys.

There is no way Cliff could pre-announce a product. (WTF does pre-announce even mean?)
Some people will always get caught short.

Lets say they pre-announced it 2 months ago.
Everyone who bought is 4-6 months ago would be crying foul that they should have been told.
Ok, then pre-pre-announce it 6 months ago.
Then the guys who bought it 9 months ago will be bitchin'.

The only way to keep 100% of the people happy is to announce the Ax III the same day as the Axe II.
The Axe III is DEFINITELY coming, probably sometime in 2014 or 2015, or maybe 2016.

I guess we all have to avoid the Axe II.

At the end of the day it is a box of circuits that allows you to produce music, or in the case of a great proportion of people sit endless tweaking and comparing and never producing anything of worth, ever- and certainly never taking it or the $4000 guitar out of the house for fear of scratching it.
I just don't see the point of that.

 

[Raven]

Ok, cry sour grapes if you like but the upgrade path wasn't such a marketing tool and an important thing for me I wouldn't be complaining. Hell I wouldn't be complaining if the Axe-II shipped with a built in kick ass stereo power amp and free MFC-101. The point is I bought into and for a product which would evolve and that seems to have halted 1 month after I got it. Oh and mine was new not used. I am a software engineer by trade and intrinsically understand that things become outdated/deprecated but this is a little hard to take, at least offering some of the new tech to be used in a limited way would be appreciated. This thing has twice the power, well I suspect it is easily possible to make the Ultra run a simple Amp->Cab set-up from the new set (my main usage of the unit) or effects on their own without amp or cab modelling as slight upgrade compensation (please note I do understand this is an over simplification but comparing the specs of the old versus new units if the ultra couldn't run simple chains of the II then the II is already also at it's limit). If they did that, I'd happilly shut up and be grateful.

My sentiments exactly (save the fact that I've had mine a couple more months than you ;-)

 

[octatonic]

Insider trading covers the trading of stock by individuals with potential access to non-public information about the company. Electrical goods do count as stock surely!? Maybe I'm wrong, it's not important really. ....anyway, I have no will whatsoever to pursue anything. I have great respect for Cliff & wish Fractal nothing but success, you're taking the post out of context. My point is that ethically a fine line is being walked here & poo-hooing newer users who are disappointed that our relatively new units are not going to be allowed access to future content isn't very fair.

Stock has two meanings.
In the context of insider trading it means 'capital stock' which does not exist in the physical world.

Stock could also mean 'items we have in our warehouse', but this has no relevance to the concept of insider trading.

Fractal aren't a publicly listed company I don't think.

Listen, I'm in the same boat as everyone.
I spent a lot of money on my Ultra, but it allowed me to work in a more portable and self contained way so what the hell, if it devalues over the next year or so when fine, I would rather it didn't but bitching about it is pointless.

Two things to consider:

First is, I don't know about you but I had a room full of amps before I got the Ultra.
I sold all of them bar one and ended up with a pile of money that I put into guitars.
From that perspective it saved me money.

The other thing is look at it as a rental.
Say you lose $1000 over the next year in depreciation (because you don't need to update right away unless you are the type that HAS to have the latest thing out, at all costs)

If you lose $1000 over a year then 1000/12 then you have lost $83 a month.
You lose more on a car and probably a large percentage of people here spend more than that on alcohol, junk food, cocaine, transexual hookers or whatever.

Maybe Fractal will volunteer up a buy back scheme, like Apple sometimes does for people who bought the ultra in the last month (doubtful, but lets say they do).
You can bet your transexual-hooker-lovin-ass that all the guys who bought it 2 months before that cut off date will be just as butt-hurt as certain individuals are coming off as now.

Anyway... back to it.

 

[Raven]

From what I've seen most people aren't running the Ultra anywhere near its limit.
Looking at the patches that show up online people are using one amp model with a bit of modulated delay and verb, with a wah and drive pedal on the front end, maybe some other modulation (flange/phase etc).
Not exactly pushing creative boundaries.

It very much seems to me that this isn't about having a workable, useful tool for musical expression, but rather having the latest toys.

Not true, I only use patches with a single amp block, a cab & drive pedal (sometimes they might have an effect pedal or 2 in there as well). I really don't need the updated power of the Axe II (I don't need the updated connectability either) I couldn't care less about there being a newer unit. The point is, the modelling itself had not quite got there yet with the ultra for me, it's damn good for sure, but still not quite on a par with the real thing. There's no reason that I shouldn't be able to purchase the new superior modelling algorithms for my current machine, as the Ultra is certainly powerful enough for what I need, this is the issue for me. I bought my Ultra in the hope that one day the modelling would come close enough for me to be able to replace my amp with it entirely, but now I have come to learn that the update culture that I expected is bogus & that my hopes are dashed unless I fork out for an entirely new machine.

 

[Michele Guzzini]

There is no way Cliff could pre-announce a product. (WTF does pre-announce even mean?)
Some people will always get caught short.

Lets say they pre-announced it 2 months ago.
Everyone who bought is 4-6 months ago would be crying foul that they should have been told.
Ok, then pre-pre-announce it 6 months ago.
Then the guys who bought it 9 months ago will be bitchin'.

The solution is one or two price reduction during the last months, that wasn't done.

 

[Allen1uk]

Wouldnt it be possible for someone to work out how to put the firmware from the 'Axe 2' onto say the ultra once the firmware is out there?

 

[shasha]

What about 70+ amp models, a ton of effects and everything pretty much working perfectly needs constant updates? What specific feature do you need to be added? Has Cliff said, "well it's legacy and I'm done with it"?

Save for AxeEdit there isn't much to improve upon with the AxeFX and NONE of you were complaining about it before this thing came out. As a matter of fact there's been a lot of chest thumping for a long time.

 

[octatonic]

The solution is one or two price reduction during the last months, that wasn't done.

I understand what you are saying but that just shifts the problem.

It would have the effect of dropping the resale and the people who bought just before the price drops would be the ones complaining now.
It might not be you- but it would be someone.

My point isn't that everyone should just cop it sweet but rather that as a company Fractal are in an unwinnable situation.
No matter how they do it certain people are always going to feel slighted or ripped off.

The Axe FX had unprecedented resale value for a couple of years.
It was never going to last forever.

The Axe came out in what 2006 or 2007.
I guess that was the same period as the Pod X3 right?
Have a look at the resale of an X3 as a percentage of the original street price.
I haven't looked but I don't think I need to- I bet it is a shitload less than the street price of an Ultra yesterday.

 

[Michele Guzzini]

I understand what you are saying but that just shifts the problem.

It would have the effect of dropping the resale and the people who bought just before the price drops would be the ones complaining now.
It might not be you- but it would be someone.

My point isn't that everyone should just cop it sweet but rather that as a company Fractal are in an unwinnable situation.
No matter how they do it certain people are always going to feel slighted or ripped off.

The Axe FX had unprecedented resale value for a couple of years.
It was never going to last forever.

The Axe came out in what 2006 or 2007.
I guess that was the same period as the Pod X3 right?
Have a look at the resale of an X3 as a percentage of the original street price.
I haven't looked but I don't think I need to- I bet it is a shitload less than the street price of an Ultra yesterday.

Buying a product for 2000$ that you could get for 1900$ the day after it's not the same of buying a product for 2000$ that the day after is out of market.

 

[Raven]

Stock has two meanings.
In the context of insider trading it means 'capital stock' which does not exist in the physical world.

Stock could also mean 'items we have in our warehouse', but this has no relevance to the concept of insider trading.

Fractal aren't a publicly listed company I don't think.

Listen, I'm in the same boat as everyone.
I spent a lot of money on my Ultra, but it allowed me to work in a more portable and self contained way so what the hell, if it devalues over the next year or so when fine, I would rather it didn't but bitching about it is pointless.

Two things to consider:

First is, I don't know about you but I had a room full of amps before I got the Ultra.
I sold all of them bar one and ended up with a pile of money that I put into guitars.
From that perspective it saved me money.

The other thing is look at it as a rental.
Say you lose $1000 over the next year in depreciation (because you don't need to update right away unless you are the type that HAS to have the latest thing out, at all costs)

If you lose $1000 over a year then 1000/12 then you have lost $83 a month.
You lose more on a car and probably a large percentage of people here spend more than that on alcohol, junk food, cocaine, transexual hookers or whatever.

Maybe Fractal will volunteer up a buy back scheme, like Apple sometimes does for people who bought the ultra in the last month (doubtful, but lets say they do).
You can bet your transexual-hooker-lovin-ass that all the guys who bought it 2 months before that cut off date will be just as butt-hurt as certain individuals are coming off as now.

Anyway... back to it.

Your missing the point, I've stated (as have a lot of other users) that I'm not bothered that a new 'better' unit is out & that I'm happy for Fractal, & that I fully expect my unit to depreciate ...I have no problem with any of that. The clanger for me is the announcement that the Ultra will not be getting any future upgrades save bug fixes if needed. That's basically saying that either you're happy to settle with the modelling as it currently stands or, should you want access to improved modelling going forward, you have to buy a machine you don't really need (even that you bought a perfectly good machine from us already).

I understand what you're saying about insider trading now, maybe it was the wrong phrase to use (it does often get used in relation 'insiders' benefitting from undisclosed information & not just as a legal allegation). However, I probably worded the post wrong & maybe it was the wrong phase to use, but I'm sure that I've been more than clear about how the post was intended. There's certainly no ill-will over here.

 

[octatonic]

Not true, I only use patches with a single amp block, a cab & drive pedal (sometimes they might have an effect pedal or 2 in there as well). I really don't need the updated power of the Axe II (I don't need the updated connectability either) I couldn't care less about there being a newer unit. The point is, the modelling itself had not quite got there yet with the ultra for me, it's damn good for sure, but still not quite on a par with the real thing. There's no reason that I shouldn't be able to purchase the new superior modelling algorithms for my current machine, as the Ultra is certainly powerful enough for what I need, this is the issue for me. I bought my Ultra in the hope that one day the modelling would come close enough for me to be able to replace my amp with it entirely, but now I have come to learn that the update culture that I expected is bogus & that my hopes are dashed unless I fork out for an entirely new machine.

'Entirely' is a very loaded word in this context.

Yes, if you want to take advantage of the updated G2 modelling then you will have to buy the new model, clearly.
You will lose money if you sell your Ultra, sure- but it isn't like your Ultra is worth nothing, and you have to spend another $2200 (or in my case 2300 euro) to get it.

Your hope that the Ultra would be the last product you would have to buy was somewhat misplaced though- did people really expect this product to last forever?
If not, when do you think would be an appropriate time for Fractal to release their new product?

 

[Allen1uk]

I defiantly am getting the feeling that some people have been tipped off, there is too much flying about here and prior to the launch of the information for people not to have been given the 'nod' about the new unit to maximize their profit/loss.

 

[Zelja]

I bought my Ultra in the hope that one day the modelling would come close enough for me to be able to replace my amp with it entirely, but now I have come to learn that the update culture that I expected is bogus & that my hopes are dashed unless I fork out for an entirely new machine.

Surely you buy a product for what it is, not what it might be in a year or 2 from now. Do you buy any other products with that same mind-set? Yes, I understand, that the one of the attractions of the Axe was the free updates but we've all seen that the frequency of release of new firmware hase diminished as advances with the unit have plateaued. Also, any (free) upgrades should be seen as a bonus not a right. Your Ultra does a shit load of things & very well - it's performance has not been diminished by the release of AXE II (in fact it has been improved due to Firmware 11 apparently).

I understand new buyers angst at the timing of their purchase with respect to the release of AXE II but maybe some perpective is needed. Very difficult situation for FAS as well & I really can't see how they could handle it much differently (especially without losing lots of money on the Standards/Ultras or endangering their business by not producing & selling the existing product & hence having no cash flow).

 

[quonsar]

The sense of entitlement in here just makes me cringe.

 

[Lightningboy]

I defiantly am getting the feeling that some people have been tipped off, there is too much flying about here and prior to the launch of the information for people not to have been given the 'nod' about the new unit to maximize their profit/loss.

Interesting thread here http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=894091

and this also makes interesting viewing http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=axe-fx%20ultra&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1

 

[octatonic]

Your missing the point, I've stated (as have a lot of other users) that I'm not bothered that a new 'better' unit is out & that I'm happy for Fractal, & that I fully expect my unit to depreciate ...I have no problem with any of that. The clanger for me is the announcement that the Ultra will not be getting any future upgrades save bug fixes if needed. That's basically saying that either you're happy to settle with the modelling as it currently stands or, should you want access to improved modelling going forward, you have to buy a machine you don't really need (even that you bought a perfectly good machine from us already).

I understand what you're saying about insider trading now, maybe it was the wrong phrase to use (it does often get used in relation 'insiders' benefitting from undisclosed information & not just as a legal allegation). However, I probably worded the post wrong & maybe it was the wrong phase to use, but I'm sure that I've been more than clear about how the post was intended. There's certainly no ill-will over here.

I'm really not misunderstanding at all- I understand your concerns.
I am just saying that this attitude of expecting that things will not change is probably not the best approach.

I started working professionally as a guitarist in the early 90s when the first Line 6 modellers came out.
The Axsys 2x12 combo and the kidney bean- in fact I had the first kidney bean in Australia as I was a reviewer for Australian Guitar magazine at the time.

They sounded terrible but it afforded me the luxury of being able to record at home, with headphones on and get a passable guitar sound.
Before that it was a DI or a Rockman.

Really we've never had it so good in terms of audio quality from modellers.
Depreciation is the cost of entry with electronic gear and people are going to lose a lot less with the Axe Fx than most other gear (for instance I lost $1800 AUD on a Lexicon MPXG2- That stung!).

Hey, I really do get it- I'm not over the moon about depreciation and I am not so much a fool that I will give money away.
That said, I pared down from a 16u rack with the Ultra, I sold about 8k worth of amps so perhaps from my perspective I don't really see it as losing and I guess that colours my perspective somewhat.

I do still maintain that depreciation is the price of entry.Anyone who can't deal with that best get out of the modeller market entirely because it isn't going to slow down.

 

[Raven]

What about 70+ amp models, a ton of effects and everything pretty much working perfectly needs constant updates? What specific feature do you need to be added? Has Cliff said, "well it's legacy and I'm done with it"?
Save for AxeEdit there isn't much to improve upon with the AxeFX and NONE of you were complaining about it before this thing came out. As a matter of fact there's been a lot of chest thumping for a long time.

Well, it isn't a tube amp or an effects pedal whereby you buy a product that does what it does & will always do what it does. It is a computer that runs software in an attempt to mimmic other products to the best of it's capability. Software changes regularly & is updatable. People buying computer based products see the hardware as one thing & the software as another, no one in there right mind would buy a £2500 computer who's manufacturer would not allow their customers to update the software as & when it is improved. I don't need any additional features, but I would like to be able to purchase new modelling algorithms for my unit & really don't like the idea of it being excluded from all future progression. ....could you imagine if Apple released a new version of Garageband but only let people who bought brand new top of the line Mac Pro's use it!? It's not sensible business, why not just allow current users to purchase the new content!?

 

[Allen1uk]

Interesting thread here http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=894091

and this also makes interesting viewing http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=axe-fx%20ultra&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283&_rdc=1

I think you have kinda proved what i said, but hey 'Its a fact of life' someone said, but it makes you second guess wether you will shop with a "said" company in the future when its one rule for one and one different for another!

 

[octatonic]

Well, it isn't a tube amp or an effects pedal whereby you buy a product that does what it does & will always do what it does. It is a computer that runs software in an attempt to mimmic other products to the best of it's capability. Software changes regularly & is updatable. People buying computer based products see the hardware as one thing & the software as another, no one in there right mind would buy a £2500 computer who's manufacturer would not allow their customers to update the software as & when it is improved. I don't need any additional features, but I would like to be able to purchase new modelling algorithms for my unit & really don't like the idea of it being excluded from all future progression. ....could you imagine if Apple released a new version of Garageband but only let people who bought brand new top of the line Mac Pro's use it!? It's not sensible business, why not just allow current users to purchase the new content!?

Well, they did release a new firmware for the Ultra and standard that:

"incorporate some of the improvements from the Axe-Fx II."

We still have no idea how long the Ultra and the Std will be supported for.