Pop/Thump when changing from hi-gain to Brownface

[OmegaZero]

From the description, it sounds like the inherent disruption when switching presets is more like a subtle processing artifact. I'm not sure that is the same as what we're talking about. What I get when switching from hi-gain to clean is an exceptionally loud thump that often lights up one or both clip lights. If I had to guess, it seems like the outputs of the presets are being momentarily summed at full volume at some point in the process. The volume of the pop/thump vastly exceeds that of either preset in the switching process.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, however from the responses in this and the Uber thread it sounds like many others are seeing this issue as well. A suggestion I made in the other thread was to provide video and/or audio recordings of this taking place, since there seems to be some trouble in witnessing the issue on the bench. Would this be helpful? Is there something... anything... we can do to assist?

 

[steadystate]

You're always going to get some pop or click if you hold the note since the Axe-Fx has to ramp the volume down and then back up. Since people want fast preset switching time this means I have to ramp the volume down in around 5 ms, same for back up. There is significant energy in a ramp of that speed.

If you can tolerate longer preset switching times I could make the pops or clicks inaudible. It was a trade-off between switching speed and transient noise.

How much slower?
I'd be fine with anything up to around 100ms, I think.

100 ms???????????????????????????????????????????

That's enough time to make coffee, drink it, metabolize it, excrete it, then complain that the unit is taking too long to switch. Seriously though, I would much rather have the fastest switching time possible. I implore Cliff to leave the switching time as is. I can't replicate this thump either.

 

[xbass8]

If you can tolerate longer preset switching times I could make the pops or clicks inaudible. It was a trade-off between switching speed and transient noise.

Is it possible to add an option allowing users to control the curve of the volume ramp up when changing presets?

assuming this is the main reason for the sound.

 

[Friedlieb]

100 ms???????????????????????????????????????????

That's enough time to make coffee, drink it, metabolize it, excrete it, then complain that the unit is taking too long to switch.

At least, it would be enough time to manually turn down the volume, switch the preset, and turn up the volume again, I guess. So my +1 for keeping the switching times as fast as they are.
But this is only my personal opinion, having experienced no (to my ears) serious pops and noises during preset switching.

 

[joegold]

100 ms???????????????????????????????????????????

That's enough time to make coffee, drink it, metabolize it, excrete it, then complain that the unit is taking too long to switch.

At least, it would be enough time to manually turn down the volume, switch the preset, and turn up the volume again, I guess. So my +1 for keeping the switching times as fast as they are.
But this is only my personal opinion, having experienced no (to my ears) serious pops and noises during preset switching.

I don't get it.
What are you guys doing during preset changes where having a very short gap between presets is more annoying than the current pop/thump?
If you're playing right through preset changes then you're gonna get the pop/thump, which is audible and annoying sounding.
50ms between presets won't even be noticeable.

And I wasn't asking for a 100ms gap.
I said 100ms is the *maximum* tolerable gap. And it's just a value off the top of my head.
Right now the ramp down and up for the volume takes about 5ms. The total time for a preset change probably takes something like 20ms.
All Cliff is talking about is increasing the ramp times a bit so that the pop/thump isn't an audible issue. That may not even affect the total preset change time for all we know.

At any rate... I never noticed this pop/thump being there at all until recently.
If earlier firmware was capable of handling preset changes without the pop/thump, then I'm sure that Cliff can work it out so that the current firmware can do same.

 

[steadystate]

I don't get it.
What are you guys doing during preset changes where having a very short gap between presets is more annoying than the current pop/thump?

As little or as much as one can possibly do in 20 ms or so, beyond changing notes or chords.

If you're playing right through preset changes then you're gonna get the pop/thump, which is audible and annoying sounding.

I am not experiencing a pop or a thump. Honestly.

50ms between presets won't even be noticeable.

Yes, it most certainly will be noticeable. The current gap is noticeable, especially during reverb spillover. It beats the hell out of the competition and I would never complain about it, but it is noticeable.

And I wasn't asking for a 100ms gap.
I said 100ms is the *maximum* tolerable gap. And it's just a value off the top of my head.
Right now the ramp down and up for the volume takes about 5ms. The total time for a preset change probably takes something like 20ms.

I was hoping you'd see the hyperbole in my reply. Everyone will have an opinion regarding the maximum tolerable gap.

All Cliff is talking about is increasing the ramp times a bit so that the pop/thump isn't an audible issue. That may not even affect the total preset change time for all we know.

Cliff just said it is a trade-off between switching speed and transient noise. He also said he worked very hard to achieve the speed we now enjoy and I appreciate his effort.

At any rate... I never noticed this pop/thump being there at all until recently.
If earlier firmware was capable of handling preset changes without the pop/thump, then I'm sure that Cliff can work it out so that the current firmware can do same.

He has my vote of confidence as well. I have to wonder if the pops are dependent on grid population and/or parameter settings. Some users may tend toward a basic layout shared among many of their presets. This could explain why some users experience pops and others don't. Or, perhaps a change in the layout is what precipitates the pops.

All I know is I don't experience them, and I like the fast switch time.

 

[FractalAudio]

I downloaded the two presets that the OP posted and I don't get pops. So it's gotta be a configuration issue. I had to remove the fx loops from those presets so I wonder if it has something to do with the loop and/or the gear in the loop.

 

[joegold]

I downloaded the two presets that the OP posted and I don't get pops. So it's gotta be a configuration issue. I had to remove the fx loops from those presets so I wonder if it has something to do with the loop and/or the gear in the loop.

I'm the OP and those are my presets.

The problem occurs when I hold a note while playing with the hi-gain preset and switch to the clean preset.
The Vol Blocks in each preset are controlled via Exp Ped B on my FCB1010/UnO controlling Ext controller #1 in the Axe..
In the hi-gain preset the Vol Block is post-Amp Block.
In the clean preset the Vol Block is pre-Amp Block.

Originally I thought the problem was limited to when using the Brownface amp type but it seems to happen with all of the clean amp sims.

As I said down-thread if I move the Vol Block in the clean preset so it's post-Amp Block also the thump is minimized to some extent, but not completely.

The FXL Block is a holdover from when I used to use a rack tuner with the Axe.
There is nothing connected to the In 2 or Out 2 jacks.

I may have some time later today to try this in earlier firmware and I'll get back with the results.
I'll also try it with the FXL Block removed and see if that affects anything.

If it's not a bug the I'd like to see any ideas that can help me minimize the problem.
I think it may also have something to do with my Spillover settings for the reverb and delay blocks.
Global Spillover is on for both rev and del.

 

[Dutch]

Used to be the AC30 model that did this. That got fixed.

Come to think of it, I had a couple of pops when switching, but never minded since they were usually at home. No harm. But they sounded like the volume needed some time to get to the programmed level after the sound already started going through.

 

[javajunkie]

I downloaded the two presets that the OP posted and I don't get pops. So it's gotta be a configuration issue. I had to remove the fx loops from those presets so I wonder if it has something to do with the loop and/or the gear in the loop.

I'm the OP and those are my presets.

The problem occurs when I hold a note while playing with the hi-gain preset and switch to the clean preset.
The Vol Blocks in each preset are controlled via Exp Ped B on my FCB1010/UnO controlling Ext controller #1 in the Axe..
In the hi-gain preset the Vol Block is post-Amp Block.
In the clean preset the Vol Block is pre-Amp Block.

Originally I thought the problem was limited to when using the Brownface amp type but it seems to happen with all of the clean amp sims.

As I said down-thread if I move the Vol Block in the clean preset so it's post-Amp Block also the thump is minimized to some extent, but not completely.

The FXL Block is a holdover from when I used to use a rack tuner with the Axe.
There is nothing connected to the In 2 or Out 2 jacks.

I may have some time later today to try this in earlier firmware and I'll get back with the results.
I'll also try it with the FXL Block removed and see if that affects anything.

If it's not a bug the I'd like to see any ideas that can help me minimize the problem.
I think it may also have something to do with my Spillover settings for the reverb and delay blocks.
Global Spillover is on for both rev and del.

Try disabling the delay and reverb in the two patch and see if it still pops or turn spillover off. If you go from significantly different delays and/or reverb this can happen especially if one is before the amp and the other after.

 

[Smilzo]

Try disabling the delay and reverb in the two patch and see if it still pops or turn spillover off.

I remember someone mentioned the delay spillover to cause problem.

 

[joegold]

Try disabling the delay and reverb in the two patch and see if it still pops or turn spillover off. If you go from significantly different delays and/or reverb this can happen especially if one is before the amp and the other after.

I'll try that later today.
But if you look at my two presets you'll see that Rev and Del are post Amp Block.

 

[javajunkie]

Try disabling the delay and reverb in the two patch and see if it still pops or turn spillover off. If you go from significantly different delays and/or reverb this can happen especially if one is before the amp and the other after.

I'll try that later today.
But if you look at my two presets you'll see that Rev and Del are post Amp Block.

I didn't mean to imply that your patch did, just a general observation that is can make things worse.

 

[joegold]

OK. I've had some time to tinker with this.

1. Spillover, whether on or off, does not affect the thump.

2. EFX Loop Block active or bypassed doesn't affect the thump.

3. In firmware versions prior to 9.00 there is no problem.
I.e. The problem starts with 9.00.

 

[steadystate]

I just tried to make my Axe pop/thump. I tortured it with program changes while holding notes and chords. I couldn't get mine to make a pop or thump if my life depended on it. I'm using version 10.02.

 

[joegold]

I just tried to make my Axe pop/thump. I tortured it with program changes while holding notes and chords. I couldn't get mine to make a pop or thump if my life depended on it. I'm using version 10.02.

Have you tried changing from one of the Mesa hi-gain Amp Types to one of the Fender clean amp types?
Have you tried it with the 2 preset I posted in my original post?

If you're switching between the two presets via the Axe's front panel the the presets have to be at adjacent locations in memory.

One thing I haven't tried yet is to defeat my Vol Blocks and see if that affects anything.
I'll get back about that.

 

[joegold]

One thing I haven't tried yet is to defeat my Vol Blocks and see if that affects anything.
I'll get back about that.

Just tried it. No effect on thump.

 

[joegold]

I've attached 2 preset files both as simple as possible, just an Amp Block and nothing else except shunts.

One is a DoubleVerb clean preset.
One is a MKII med-hi-gain preset.

The pop/thump occurs when switching from the MKII preset to the DoubleVerb preset while sustaining a note attacked just prior to the preset change.

I've tried every I/O, Global and Utility setting I can think of and nothing affects the problem.

As I said earlier the only way I've been able to make it go away is by reverting to firmware prior to 9.00.
I suppose it's still possible that there might be some sort of a settings issue, but it seems much more likely to me that this is indeed a bug.

[attachment=1:3bo2fs0z]C1.syx[/attachment:3bo2fs0z]

[attachment=0:3bo2fs0z]S1.syx[/attachment:3bo2fs0z]

 

[xbass8]

To those with no issue guitar signal must be sustained from a high gain patch to a clean one. For me, spillover settings
did nothing and importantly switching is completely silent when there is no guitar signal.

The solution,

if FAS won't develop a workaround,

is another unit for extensive routing options. Super presets vs preset change.


My current experiment is a messy combination of gear, sadly i was under the illusion that the ultra would define my setup. Great unit no doubt just damn do I really need two?

 

[xbass8]

I just tried to make my Axe pop/thump. I tortured it with program changes while holding notes and chords. I couldn't get mine to make a pop or thump if my life depended on it. I'm using version 10.02.

Maybe you are blessed then and I am cursed.