Playing a real amp after a long break…

[Rock Chalk]

There is also a setting in global settings "Oversampling Mode: Best Quality / Minimum Latency". I wonder how (or whether) you perceive latency when setting this to "minimum latency"?

Good question..... @My name is mud .....what is yours set on.......do you feel a difference in the two settings?

 

[My name is mud]

Good question..... @My name is mud .....what is yours set on.......do you feel a difference in the two settings?

I never tried this option and never touched the settings. I will try it tomorrow

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

And also Cliff said that their products are under 3 ms and that he doubt that something under 2ms exists in the modeler world. So… yes

But once again that is very very small. Not disturbing like what you have at first in a daw without setting the buffer.

If I remember it begins to really disturb me at 3 ms.

Move a meter closer.

 

[Chromatizm]

Id bet a blind test would sort that out.

Different people tested me a few times in blind tests with ~3 to ~4ms vs 8ms delay by changing the buffer setting in my Zoom interface, guitar plugged directly in. 10/10 hits, there is just no room for mistake, you hear and feel this difference every time. I have no idea how NOT to feel this difference. Maybe this is not a proper test, but you can always hear that the sound from speakers is delayed against the pick attack. Same with using a cheap NUX 5RC wireless.

I never had a chance to properly test less than 1ms analog vs ~3ms my FM3 has, but sitting 2m from the speakers I absolutely feel the delay. Can't say I ever noticed it with my Egnater Rebel 30 plugged the same way, with direct monitoring enabled.

Maybe the volume changes this because in a "living room" situation you typically don't play too loud, and so you can clearly hear the pick attack and then the sound from the speakers. I can't say I ever felt it live, too many sounds around. So probably it is incorrect to say "you can't really hear/feel the small delay", but "you might hear/feel it depending on the situation you are in".

 

[fractalz]

Don’t know what to say, I’m not a math guy at all.
I don’t know at all what is the latency in a tube amp versus the axe, but I’m 100% sure that the axe got a mini delay that I don’t feel at all with my amp. When I hit a note in the axe, the note is not immediate. This is very small hm, not like a daw or soundcard. But it happen a lot that I ask myself « wait, there is a latency with the axe only? »

Signal moves approx speed of light in a copper wire.

 

[mr_fender]

Different people tested me a few times in blind tests with ~3 to ~4ms vs 8ms delay by changing the buffer setting in my Zoom interface, guitar plugged directly in. 10/10 hits, there is just no room for mistake, you hear and feel this difference every time. I have no idea how NOT to feel this difference. Maybe this is not a proper test, but you can always hear that the sound from speakers is delayed against the pick attack. Same with using a cheap NUX 5RC wireless.

I never had a chance to properly test less than 1ms analog vs ~3ms my FM3 has, but sitting 2m from the speakers I absolutely feel the delay. Can't say I ever noticed it with my Egnater Rebel 30 plugged the same way, with direct monitoring enabled.

Maybe the volume changes this because in a "living room" situation you typically don't play too loud, and so you can clearly hear the pick attack and then the sound from the speakers. I can't say I ever felt it live, too many sounds around. So probably it is incorrect to say "you can't really hear/feel the small delay", but "you might hear/feel it depending on the situation you are in".

There's definitely a difference. At the electron scale, it's a massive difference. Probably around six orders of magnitude more signal latency in digital vs analog gear. How well people can perceive that difference seems to vary quite a bit from person to person. Some folks are very sensitive to it, while others never seem to notice at all. Don't think there's a universal threshold for everyone. Some folks can see the 50 or 60 Hz flicker of some types of lights or slower refreshing TV's and monitors too. I'm not particularly sensitive to it myself, so I've never really noticed much of a difference.

 

[skydog]

That ass in the room tone

With the new dynamic fart, when set to zero, is the mic assumed to be on the ass, or just up against the pants?

 

[skydog]

Come on, how can we say that the axe fx iii is imperceptible to a real amp, if we aren’t playing real amps? Real amps are awesome. The wonder that is Fractal, is that I can have so many “amps” on the same stage, fx in any sequence, a complete reconfiguting and recabling in milliseconds, both between and within songs.

 

[Rick]

Love going back and playing my amps. It has its own thing, something worth modeling in the first place. Nothing’s replacing the Fractal total package, but amps are still lots of fun.

 

[Randalljax]

So short people have less latency.

If they are directly behind he who farted , then yes

 

[Rex]

Some random thoughts...

- Electrical signals travel through copper at about 60% of the speed of light. So yes, analog signals can have very low latency.

- The only way to get less than 2 milliseconds of latency from an analog system is to have your ears no more than half a meter from the speaker. Most people would find this very inconvenient and uncomfortable, which is why no one does it.

- As noted elsewhere, the Double Verb Fractal amp model sounds okay at moderate volumes. But crank it up to gig levels, and the notes will slap you in the face. Most people experience this as “immediacy,” and will forget all about latency.

 

[Jan Geerts]

I play amps every day at the shop. I prefer the Axe

 

[TSJMajesty]

Oh ffs, nobody is detecting 1 or 2 ms of latency. Lets be real, IF something is perceptible theres definately more than that. Id bet a blind test would sort that out.

That would be like saying you play best standing 3 ft from the amp, because 10ft had too much latency. This place is wild sometimes.

I know a really good guitar player that wont play on a wireless either, because its too latent. But hes somehow fine when tracking in the studio with all that latency

I'd have to agree.

But I also agree that people who say they feel a latency with the Axe vs. an amp are feeling something, because most of you can probably recall a time when you switch from one type of sound system to another, and you noticed X immediately. (Could be various things, but the point is, you noticed it right away.)

My proposal: Set up an amp with an analog delay pedal, set to 2 ms. of delay, mix @ 100%. Have someone else turn it on and off and see if you can tell when it's on vs. off.

 

[Chromatizm]

Don't think there's a universal threshold for everyone.

After giving it some thought I think there IS a "universal" threshold for everyone, BUT it depends on personal experiences.
I think so because millions of years of evolution gave us ability to understand if the sound source is 10cm or 1m away from us and position it precisely within a space, which is waaaaaaay lower and more accurate than any delay we get from our gear (assuming we are not sitting "ear on the speaker"). So there should be a "universal" threshold.

I spent most of my early life practicing Di Meola-style alternate picking on acoustic guitars and analog gear like SansAmp sitting about a meter from the speakers with a very low volume because of the neighbors. Definitely a "as close to 0 delay as possible" experience for many many years. My brain, ears and body just got used to that "immediate sound", I would assume. I was never ever in my life able to use any PC plugin even with 4ms delay. My brain was going completely crazy, I felt like the amp is in another room. Never worked for me playing-wise.
These days I'm playing FM3 sitting a bit further away from the speakers that I used to, and there is no doubt I can hear the chirp of the pick before the processed sound arrives. The good thing - it doesn't make my head explode. The bad thing - it still feels not like the immediate response, which sometimes makes me uncomfortable when playing quick lines with picking (legato feels different because of the "tender" attack). My brain knows precisely how far away the speaker is, so it compensates and accepts this reality.

And I can see why people who played actual loud amps from a few meters away for many years don't agree with my point. It is their experience, and the delay that get from Fractal gear is perfectly within the boundaries of time they are used to.
It still IMO doesn't mean they can't feel the difference because they are "different". Try slapping you hand against the table and imaging the sound comes a couple ms later. Your brain would sue you for that and leave you to be with someone else.

 

[MackieFX]

there is no doubt I can hear the chirp of the pick before the processed sound arrives.

This is what I was trying to articulate. I definitely feel that the note is coming out after my pick hits the strings.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I think there is a bit more total latency when you factor in the modeler then the monitors which being digital also can have some latency due to the DSP used, then in my case at least, my monitors are set up at my desk so I’m some distance from them which is measurable as well compared to when I’ve got a tube combo 3 feet in front of me and it’s 100% analog.

Now maybe if I took my studio monitors, put them on the floor and everything it would be more equal, but not really something I would do.

So it’s not just modeler, but playback system, and my monitors across the room sound like guitar coming out of 6” monitor speakers. Having a 10 or 12” open cabinet at your feet with it’s more directional nature, more power, et will sound and feel different.

 

[jaycal6]

Just played through this signal chain...

Real amp > Fryette Power Station > Apollo Twin > DAW > IR loader > studio monitors

And I gotta say, I definitely prefer Axe over this. The stuff I like about playing a real amp - the immediacy, attack, etc. - is absent when running through the Power Station into the DAW. Might as well use Axe and have 1000x more options and flexibility.

 

[sprint]

I think there is a bit more total latency when you factor in the modeler then the monitors which being digital also can have some latency due to the DSP used

this ^^ - my threshhold of sensitivity to latency starts around 12-15ms but I still concern myself with minimizing it since aggregate latency can easily sneak up to that level: Axefx + DSP Monitors + Audio Interface + a couple of active digital pedals in one or two Axefx loops and BOOM: yur up to a latency that even some more latency-insensitive peeps won't like.

 

[Rock Chalk]

I think there is a bit more total latency when you factor in the modeler then the monitors which being digital also can have some latency due to the DSP used, then in my case at least, my monitors are set up at my desk so I’m some distance from them which is measurable as well compared to when I’ve got a tube combo 3 feet in front of me and it’s 100% analog.

Now maybe if I took my studio monitors, put them on the floor and everything it would be more equal, but not really something I would do.

So it’s not just modeler, but playback system, and my monitors across the room sound like guitar coming out of 6” monitor speakers. Having a 10 or 12” open cabinet at your feet with it’s more directional nature, more power, et will sound and feel different.

Something jumped out from your post that I am curious about.…. If you’re talking about nearfield studio monitors, I don’t think “across the room” is their intended purpose and or sweet spot is it? Nothing to do with latency, was just wondering.

 

[marsonic]

this ^^ - my threshhold of sensitivity to latency starts around 12-15ms but I still concern myself with minimizing it since aggregate latency can easily sneak up to that level: Axefx + DSP Monitors + Audio Interface + a couple of active digital pedals in one or two Axefx loops and BOOM: yur up to a latency that even some more latency-insensitive peeps won't like.

Agreed.

I honestly don't know what my personal threshold is, just that I've gone over it before. For a long time, I had a second set of speakers plugged into my FM3 just so the guitar sound wouldn't be delayed by the processing I have on my mains. But...I changed how I was doing that again, and It's fine with it running through my computer & mains now. I still prefer monitoring through the FM3 via IEMs when I'm playing, but I can use my speakers now.