Pitch block causes volume drop

Stringtheorist

Stringtheorist

Fractal Fanatic
I keep running into this problem and I haven't yet grasped how to solve it. When I engage a Pitch block to create a parallel harmony the overall output level drops. I am placing the block after the amp but before the cab, mix at 50%, Ingain at 100%, level at unity, Bybass mode set to Mix=0% and attached to an External controller. What do I need to do to have the harmonised output at the same level as the dry input signal?
 
try putting the pitch block in parallel with the main line with the mix at 100% and the mute mode set to "mute in". so it goes where you have it at the moment, in between the amp and cab, but one row over, connected to the main line. (make sure there's a shunt where you have the pitch block at the moment)

when you have mix set to 50% you are in fact lowering the level of the dry signal, which is why you perceive a drop in volume.

look how the reverb and chorus are connected in this picture - http://www.atomicamps.com/axe-edit-screen-capture5.jpg

sim
 
Thanks but this has the opposite effect and makes the harmonised output much louder. To confuse matters further I have one preset where the Pitch block has identical settings except that it uses Intel Harmony instead of Fixed Harmony mode and it sounds balanced. But I can't identify why. :?
 
if you have mix at 100% input at 100% and level at 0, then the harmony should be the same level as the dry signal. if it isn't, then you have something set incorrectly somewhere. you could always lower the level so it sounds balanced to you.

sim
 
In the patch that's working (sounds balanced) the Ingain is 100% and the Mix is at 50%. If I raise the Mix to 100% it's louder. In the patch that's not working the settings appear to be the same. :?
 
you got me stumped. without seeing/hearing it, it's qite difficult to troubleshoot. if you're using the editor, you could save the settings of the pitch block in the patch that's working and load them into the patch that isn't and see if that solves it

sim
 
No worries solving the issue per se, as I just copied the Pitch block and then altered the parameters I needed to change. However, I would like to know what's going on so I don't keep making the same mistake. :/
 
you may not be. sometimes i have problems with the editor not completely clearing out previous settings if i remove a block from a patch and then reload a new version of it

sim
 
I'm with Simeon. Because of the leveling stuff, I prefer the Pitch block in a parallel path. Mix at 100%, Level to taste, Mute In.

BTW, Cliff recommends (when going direct) putting the Pitch block before the cab [EDITED: corrected].
 
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yek said:
I'm with Simeon. Because of the leveling stuff, I prefer the Pitch block in a parallel path. Mix at 100%, Level to taste, Mute In.

BTW, Cliff recommends (when going direct) putting the Pitch block before the amp.
Click to expand...

Depending on how you are using it, he has recommended both (before amp, between amp/cab). I have found, for what ever reason, that if you are using one amp block that it sounds better (IMO) between amp and cab.


Cliffs actual tip was this:
"When going direct, pitch shifting often sounds best when placed BEFORE the cab block."
 
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yeah, if you're using the pitch block to create a harmony, then it should definitely not go before a dirty amp
 
simeon said:
yeah, if you're using the pitch block to create a harmony, then it should definitely not go before a dirty amp
Click to expand...

Sure. But placing it (after the amp) before OR after the cab shouldn't make a difference (cab drive = 0, of course), logically.
Yet I agree with Sean that it sounds better in front of the cab; who knows why...
 
simeon said:
yeah, if you're using the pitch block to create a harmony, then it should definitely not go before a dirty amp
Click to expand...

Try it between then amp and cab the before. I have done both ways. With one amp, one pitch block, one or 2 voices (50%) mix it sounds better after the amp with a dirty amp. It is smoother and less harsh. I just tried now to reafirm.
 
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My finding is that it seems to track slightly better placed before the amp block but sounds better placed after, don't know why.
 
Stringtheorist said:
My finding is that it seems to track slightly better placed before the amp block but sounds better placed after, don't know why.
Click to expand...

tracks the same either way (provide source is set to global). The tracking is done at the input of the axe-fx and is not dependent on the routing.
The best sounding is the harmony getting its own amp put before the blocks with mix at 100%, IMO.
But with the pitch block at 50% and one amp block, between amp and cab sounds best.
 
Try leaving the pitch block as in your initial post--series, 50% mix, Mix=0% bypass mode--but set its level to +3 dB. That will maintain similar overall level for bypassed vs. engaged. If you set it to +6 dB (or just use Mute FX In/Out byp. mode) dry level remains constant but it will sound like a ~3 dB boost when the harmony is added. You might want that or find something between 3 & 6 works better.

Sebastian said:
Sure. But placing it (after the amp) before OR after the cab shouldn't make a difference (cab drive = 0, of course), logically.
Yet I agree with Sean that it sounds better in front of the cab; who knows why...
Click to expand...

There is a difference. If the cab IR has less response at 100 Hz than at 200 Hz, shifting a 100 Hz tone up an octave before cab will produce a louder result than with cab first. With pitch after cab it sounds less like the actual cab as the shift interval gets larger.
 
Bakerman said:
There is a difference. If the cab IR has less response at 100 Hz than at 200 Hz, shifting a 100 Hz tone up an octave before cab will produce a louder result than with cab first. With pitch after cab it sounds less like the actual cab as the shift interval gets larger.
Click to expand...

Ah, I get it; very smart, Bakerman! Wouldn't have thought of such an "nonlinearity".
What do you mean by "as the shift interval gets larger" ?

On the level topic: I experienced the same with the delay block, what Bakerman just said about the pitch block.
I used to put in a delay in parallel because of the fickle volume leveling when routed serial, especially when switching bypass on and off.
But for ease of use (and to make the "global mix" setting work) I wanted to go back to serial routing, unless parallel was really needed for special reasons.
Setting the delay block's output level to +3 dB (and bypass mode to "mix=0%") sounds like equal volume, bypassed and engaged.
I then did the same with the pitch block when routed serial.
 
Sebastian said:
What do you mean by "as the shift interval gets larger" ?
Click to expand...

The pitch block basically shifts the entire cab freq. response up/down if it's after cab. A slight detune might sound about the same either way but with a half step, whole step, etc. the difference becomes more apparent.
 
javajunkie said:
tracks the same either way (provide source is set to global). The tracking is done at the input of the axe-fx and is not dependent on the routing.
Click to expand...
That caveat — "provide source is set to global" — makes or breaks the deal. If you've got tracking set to local, you can expect the pitch block to track more poorly if the block is placed after the amp than if it's placed before the amp.
 
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A lot of lightbulbs just turned on for me reading this thread. :) The global thing didn't sink in when reading it in the manual until just now.
 
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