Owned Axe FX 2, 3, FM3, and sold them all. Couldn't get decent tones. What was I doing wrong?

[Greg Ferguson]

But what sucks is I can't play much louder, as I tend to play late at night, and I hate headphones, and I live in an apartment.

In my house loud volume is not an option, which is why I ended up with Fractal’s equipment. I learned a long time ago that headphones are my friends, at least at home, and have three different sets, all of which sound a bit different but the difference is a good thing because I learned how to compensate for their differences and trust their sound.

The volume you use to listen to sound affects the brain’s ability to discern lows, mids, and highs in your modeler’s output, just as it does with what you hear from your stereo. It’s a psych-acoustic phenomenon common to all people, called the Fletcher-Munson Curve. We can equalize our modeler’s sound at low volume to sound good to us, but it’s going to sound terrible at higher, stage, volumes because of that curve. So, if you have to maintain a quiet environment, you must learn how to compensate and figure out a way to listen to your system’s output in a way that reflects the real sound of the modeler at an acceptable volume.

Since you said your guitar strings are audible over the sound of the modeler, it sounds to me like the Fletcher-Munson Curve is in full effect so I suspect you are going to need good headphones and are going to need to reconcile yourself to that if you want the experience you say you want, with as low an external volume as possible. Good headphones don’t have to be crazy expensive, though often we end up buying them because they are an extraordinary listening tool. There are many sub-$100 pairs that, with a simple equalization curve, will sound pretty good. Over the ear, open back and earphones are all good tools I use to help maintain domestic tranquility. And then weekly I take my gear to play with some friends, and engage in some loudness.

Having learned to gauge the difference between what I hear in my headphones and how the modeler will sound through my monitors, and to trust the system, I’m very happy with what I hear. That’s what it sounds like you’re going to need to focus on, finding the happy spot.

 

[Sashman]

In my house loud volume is not an option, which is why I ended up with Fractal’s equipment. I learned a long time ago that headphones are my friends, at least at home, and have three different sets, all of which sound a bit different but the difference is a good thing because I learned how to compensate for their differences and trust their sound.

The volume you use to listen to sound affects the brain’s ability to discern lows, mids, and highs in your modeler’s output, just as it does with what you hear from your stereo. It’s a psych-acoustic phenomenon common to all people, called the Fletcher-Munson Curve. We can equalize our modeler’s sound at low volume to sound good to us, but it’s going to sound terrible at higher, stage, volumes because of that curve. So, if you have to maintain a quiet environment, you must learn how to compensate and figure out a way to listen to your system’s output in a way that reflects the real sound of the modeler at an acceptable volume.

Since you said your guitar strings are audible over the sound of the modeler, it sounds to me like the Fletcher-Munson Curve is in full effect so I suspect you are going to need good headphones and are going to need to reconcile yourself to that if you want the experience you say you want, with as low an external volume as possible. Good headphones don’t have to be crazy expensive, though often we end up buying them because they are an extraordinary listening tool. There are many sub-$100 pairs that, with a simple equalization curve, will sound pretty good. Over the ear, open back and earphones are all good tools I use to help maintain domestic tranquility. And then weekly I take my gear to play with some friends, and engage in some loudness.

Having learned to gauge the difference between what I hear in my headphones and how the modeler will sound through my monitors, and to trust the system, I’m very happy with what I hear. That’s what it sounds like you’re going to need to focus on, finding the happy spot.

100%
And this is also why I‘m getting a custom molded In Ear Monitor System.

You have to learn to hear with headphones.
I have done many many studio work and recordings and you always have to know, how a specific headphone sounds and that it will sound sometimes completely different on the recording.
Fletcher Munson Curve is very usefull.
I do like the Beyerdynamic DT 880, not for playing, for dialing in sounds that I can use live. Why? Because the have massive highs and a lack of mids and when I dial in a live sound with them, it will sound good, because I dial out highs and dial in mids that compensates the Fletcher Munson Curve.

 

[simeon]

to the op, it sounds like there's not enough level hitting the unit. cleans are thin and gainy tones are cleaner than expected. you will need to think about how you can troubleshoot the issue. firstly, i would suggest plugging some headphones directly into the unit, just to test. if things sound normal, then you can move on to the next stage. if they don't, then you only have a couple of things to look at. your guitar and your cable. the trick is to try and rule out variables as you go. remember that cheap headphones won't sound great, but just pay attention to the levels of gain. if it helps, one of us can make a recording of a factory preset with a similar guitar to yours, so that you can compare.

 

[Piing]

As nuts as it may sound, when I load up Guitar Rig 5 and pull up one of the first presets "80's shred" or whatever it is, I can get a full, "loud" tone, even when lowering the output knob on my interface to play quietly. The tone still sounds good. I am thinking because a good amount of output is hitting the interface even when I lower the global volume.

Have you ever tried to adjust the output level of you AxeFXII/III/FM3 to hit you interface at equal volume as Guitar Rig 5?

Maybe my guitar is crap? Right now I'm paying through a Peavey T-60, as some of my better stuff is in storage.

Yet you say that your guitar sounds good with Guitar Rig-5. So that may not be the issue

 

[ScottyB]

Glad you're giving it another try. Once you get the FM3, if you're still not getting what you want out of the unit, please do the following:

• Post a copy of the preset.
• List what you have in your signal chain.
• Share a clip of what you're trying to get. Even if it's something from YT, it will get us in the ball park.

This will allow the community to investigate and come up with possible solutions.

 

[HereToday]

I’m another headphone proponent. There are a few very comfortable, great sound sets out there. The Fractal units sound amazing thru headphones and there are several features to help in this regard such as the Enhancer block. Please do not rule out headphones as I think they are the real solution given your situation which is very very common around here btw.

My apologies for misunderstanding your OP.

 

[rich2k4]

Any recommendations for headphones if I have to go that route? I've been looking at the DT-770's from BeyerDynamic.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Any recommendations for headphones if I have to go that route? I've been looking at the DT-770's from BeyerDynamic.

I use Sennheiser HD650, which are often found in mix-down rooms. They’re open-back so they leak a little sound, but are light, comfortable, and sound great.

I also use a pair of Audio-Technica ATH-M40x which are easily found in recording studios. They’re closed-back and isolate the sound. They’re not as accurate as the Sennheiser.

In both cases I also use either PEQ or GEQ blocks immediately ahead of the OUT block to equalize the headphones based on settings found at https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/headphonecom. I remove or disable the block before saving the preset because my goal is to use the preset live and the equalizer compensation would seriously affect that. YMMV.

 

[AndrewJay]

In your opening post rich2k4, you mentioned that you were going through a Scarlett 6i6. I'd suggest as I'm sure others have already, to eliminate the interface from the equation for now. Go straight from the FM3 into your monitors, or when you get headphones, use the headphone jack. When you are recording in your DAW, same thing, just choose the FM3 as your interface.
Somewhat random thought, what kind of cables were you running from your Fractals into your interface?
I know troubleshooting can be frustrating but I commend you for your efforts to make it work. There is a solution and this forum does have very knowledgeable and helpful people on it.
There are several different things that could be at play here, but once you get your new unit and report back, we'll be able to help you more.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I’d check your guitar’s wiring by plugging in to a tube amp at a guitar store, one whose character you are somewhat familiar with. Bring your guitar cable too, then compare with a guitar sold at the store with your cable and with a store cable. It could be your cable is bad, which might be fixable, or your pickup wiring is wrong in some way, also very fixable. For instance, if one of your humbuckers was accidentally wired in parallel instead of series (or split!), you’d have an unexpectedly low input hitting your Fractal unit.

The reason it would still hit Guitar Rig with a good signal is the hyper-adjustable input gain of the Scarlett. Any recording interface with a direct guitar input will allow you to boost your signal to a large degree to get whatever input level a plug-in or other sound generator would want to see. This has been one big factor that led me to FAS, the fact that plug-ins have no idea what your actual guitar’s output is, and they depend on interface inputs, which, rather than maintaining the true character of your guitar (a big part of which is the output level), just ask you to “hit the red” then dial back a hair. In the AxeFX III, when you tickle the red in the I/O menu, it actually normalizes your signal to be whatever you put in initially, just with a lower noise floor, and you can still boost it more than you’d ever want, using other parameters. But by default Fractal is one of the only companies out there whose units are designed to recreate how your guitar would interact with that same amp in the real world, meaning by default the guitar input is not by default increased at all, so if you had a weak signal hitting the Scarlett, you’d just turn up your input level until it sounded loud enough, artificially raising it; in a Fractal, it just stays weak unless your go in and find the global Input 1 gain parameter to act as a clean boost, or you use any of the myriad other ways to boost your input in the unit (input block gain, level on an EQ block, boost level in the amp block, etc). But the Fractal might be telling you there’s just something wrong with your input, either the cable or the guitar’s wiring.

The other thing I’d check would be your output cables, from the Fractal to the interface, from the interface to your monitors.

My gut tells me it’s your guitar wiring, that it might be just off somehow; there are so many things that could cause a weak signal. If you could record a dry signal, using the Fractal as your interface when it arrives, then upload it here, users on the forum can check that signal against our own guitars to hear if it just sounds abnormally weak, and would be an easy way to eliminate that possibility.

I use headphones too (my wife and I live and work from home in a 500 square foot studio apartment), and after trying a couple of more expensive pairs I still decided to stick with my AKG K240 Studio headphones, which are around $70.00. To my ears, they just capture character so well, especially the “grain” of different cabinets and the feel of different amps.

All that aside, thank you for responding and for providing more information. This community is very passionate about FAS, and this particular thread has attracted a great deal of attention, so I think we will be able collectively to find and provide guidance to resolve whatever is truly causing your issue. Best of luck!

 

[State of Epicicity]

The other thing I forgot to mention about guitar wiring: if you have just a bad solder joint at some in your circuit, that could be enough to make your signal go haywire. I was having weird trouble with my guitar recently, and opened it find a piece of junk solder I had missed in my last wiring excursion: it was just extra solder that had fallen and hardened flat in my control cavity. It came loose and landed right on my neck volume pot, perfectly touching two adjacent lugs that were not meant to connect to each other. I had wondered for a week why I was getting intermittent cutting out of my signal, until I removed the pickguard, took out a flashlight and caught it.

 

[HereToday]

Any recommendations for headphones if I have to go that route? I've been looking at the DT-770's from BeyerDynamic.

I use open back Shure SRH1840s which I also use for mixing. I have been very pleased with them and super comfortable.

Open backs will be more accurate in general especially in the lower frequencies. They don’t do very well at isolating sound. If you need to go closed for this reason, I also use the ATs per Greg’s post. Great sounding and will wall off the world. Just not as accurate out of the box.

To improve upon accuracy, make sure to visit the link in Greg’s post. Applying some EQ to your headphones will make them much more accurate sounding and they have done all the work for you already at that link.

 

[MikeyB59]

I play at whisper volume through mediocre monitors and can’t get my clean sounds to emulate a Fender Twin Reverb. What’s wrong with the Axe?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I play at whisper volume through mediocre monitors and can’t get my clean sounds to emulate a Fender Twin Reverb. What’s wrong with the Axe?

Turn down the Fender Twin until it sounds like the Axe. Problem solved.

 

[Frodebro]

Any recommendations for headphones if I have to go that route? I've been looking at the DT-770's from BeyerDynamic.

I’ve been using the DT770s for many years now, both for quiet playing and also for tracking in my home studio. I’ve been pretty happy with them.

You mentioned you were using a Peavey T-60. That was one of my first “good” guitars 35 years ago when I was getting started. If the wiring and pickups are are all original, be aware that they aren’t wired like most guitars are-if you roll back either the volume or tone (I can’t remember which one) it morphs to a single coil kind of thing that I absolutely hated as a young metal head. This might be the source of your frustration now-even full throttle the pickups are pretty tame.

 

[Budda]

Any recommendations for headphones if I have to go that route? I've been looking at the DT-770's from BeyerDynamic.

Just got a pair for xmas. Not as different from my bose headphones as I expected. No matter what pair you choose, it's good to get used to headphones since you're in an apartment.

 

[la szum]

(my wife and I live and work from home in a 500 square foot studio apartment),

Wow! San Fran or New York???

Oh, and that's clearly true love.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Wow! San Fran or New York???

Oh, and that's clearly true love.

Haha Denver! Which is well on its way to those prices, and why we're leaving when our lease is up.

And yes, it is true love.

 

[DavidCarrMusic]

Kept coming back to see whether I was wrong but every time I felt the same.

I live in an apartment and play late at night, midnight, etc. Don't like using headphones so I would play through my JBL305 studio monitors at a low volume.

The tones just didn't feel right, especially clean tones.

My process was as follows:

Load up amp and cab

pull up the preset level meter and increase the amp level until I'm near the 0 db line.

A lot of times, even when I did this, the tones were still too quiet at times, on my audio interface (Scarlet 6i6) not even hitting -12 db.

Especially trying to get clean tones. I would be able to hear my guitar strings sometimes louder than the actual tones. Yet music and youtube videos coming out of my system were at a good volume.

Through headphones things would sound bad.

Some presets were so quiet, I couldn't even hear the effects on them if they were one of the weird ones with tons of effects. Presets that were ambient pads, I couldn't hear at all at times.

All of this coming out of OUT 1, with the knob at about noon.

I then switched to OUT 2, set the mode to "Unity Gain" dimed the OUT 2 knob to max (On FM3), set the preset level using the meter, but it would still be extremely quiet.

However if I were to record the tones into a DAW and play it back, it would sound better than what I was hearing live.

I would get so frustrated that I sold them. 3 different units, at 3 different periods of time. All sold.

I heard a tap, tap, tap, at my window. Went there only to find Keira Knightley and Natalie Portman both competing to get into my room. "Let us in, let us in" they both cried with lust in their eyes. I had to turn them away. They just don't do it for me. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

You mentioned you were using a Peavey T-60. That was one of my first “good” guitars 35 years ago when I was getting started. If the wiring and pickups are are all original, be aware that they aren’t wired like most guitars are-if you roll back either the volume or tone (I can’t remember which one) it morphs to a single coil kind of thing that I absolutely hated as a young metal head. This might be the source of your frustration now-even full throttle the pickups are pretty tame.

A friend used one for years, and I agree, it had a sound that could get horribly nasal. I suspect that the pickups were wired out of phase, so when set to equal volume they’d mostly cancel each other resulting in a very thin sound without any power. I couldn’t stand the sound but he loved it. Ugh, to each their own.

Yep, out of phase…
https://www.premierguitar.com/diy/mod-garage/peavey-t-60