not sure about the new delay mix law

[Bodde]

also discovered today that with delay in series with the new mix law there is still an increase in volume with higher mix settings. Had the same settings (o db level in delay block, also tried -6 db) with 20% mix my preset was ok, but with 40% mix it started clipping (red light). So there is still an increase in volume when delay is in series.

 

[yek]

The "new mix law" is not about the level staying the same. It's about the dry level not being affected by the Mix setting.

Testing it with Level at -6 makes no difference. The Delay is in series so Level adjusts only the entire signal (when engaged), not just the echoes.

 

[Bodde]

The "new mix law" is not about the level staying the same. It's about the dry level not being affected by the Mix setting..

ok, then I have misunderstood it. I thought the whole idea and reason why the mix law has changed is to have the same overall volume with higher mix settings when delay is in series? so to make it easier to dial in your delay volume without having to compensate the increased volume with higher mix settings with the delay level. I have a hard time with leveling my presets because of the delay level/volume. Especially when putting a modifier to control the mix.

For many presets I use one global amp and keeping most other effect blocks at 0db level. This way I have much better control over my preset levels in a live situation (one of the hardest things to accomplish on the Axe fx and other Mutli-fx as well if you use many presets). But the difference in volume of the delay mix kind of spoils that control over the presets volume. I use different delays for each presets and many times two delays in one preset with mix controlled by expression pedals.

 

[Rex]

The idea behind the new delay mix law is to keep the dry level the same. For most folks (myself included), it's bothersome to have the dry level change when you change the delay; it doesn't sound right. A lot of people were using work-arounds to keep that from happening.

As the delay mix approaches 50%, the overal volume will get a bit louder, because your delays are being added to your dry signal. That's the compromise you have to accept if you want to be able to adjust delay without messing with the dry signal.

 

[Bodde]

As the delay mix approaches 50%, the overal volume will get a bit louder, because your delays are being added to your dry signal. That's the compromise you have to accept if you want to be able to adjust delay without messing with the dry signal.

Thanks for clarifying. For me it is annoying that the overall level increases with higher mix settings. I have to compensate this level increase with other parameters which can be very tricky to get your presets at the same level.
How do you all cope with increased volume when attaching the delay mix to an expression pedal (delay in series)? tried the parallel method but then I also have increased volume when attaching the delay level or input gain to an expression pedal.

 

[yek]

It may be annoying but it's a law of nature ...
Summing multiple signals above a certain threshold will increase the overall signal level.
Just make sure to keep the level of the delay trails below that threshold and you can get 50-50 without boosting the signal.

 

[Bodde]

Summing multiple signals above a certain threshold will increase the overall signal level.
Just make sure to keep the level of the delay trails below that threshold and you can get 50-50 without boosting the signal.

not sure what you mean by that. Can you explain how I can keep it below that treshold?

 

[Rex]

For me it is annoying that the overall level increases with higher mix settings.

I've heard one other forum member say the same thing. So many users wanted it the new way, and Cliff accommodated them.

I have to compensate this level increase with other parameters which can be very tricky to get your presets at the same level.

All you need to do is attach the same pedal to Delay Level. Set the modifier so the Level starts at 0 dB, goes down a few dB at the halfway point, and back up to 0 at the other end of the sweep (assuming you're sweeping from 0% to 100% mix).

If you have a single delay with no repeats, your signal will be 3 dB louder at 50% mix. If you have three non-repeating delays, it'll be 6 dB louder. But don't sweat the numbers. Just set the endpoints to 0 dB, and tune the midpoint level by ear.

How do you all cope with increased volume when attaching the delay mix to an expression pedal (delay in series)?

I just accept it. For my purposes, it sounds better with the new mix law.

 

[yek]

not sure what you mean by that. Can you explain how I can keep it below that treshold?

Sorry, I think all required info has been provided on the previous pages.

 

[Bodde]

Just not exactly sure what you mean and what you are referring to. I will go through this topic again and find out. Thanks for all the help and patience guys! Just having a hard to time with the delay levels.

 

[yek]

I meant that the last two pages were already dedicated to your personal support... ;-)

I'll try once more. But instead of focussing on numbers, you should try to understand the underlying mechanism.

1. "Old" mix rule: adjusting MIX in the Delay block affects the balance between the dry signal and the "wet" signal (= delay trails). If you increase MIX the delay gets louder, but the dry level get softer. This makes perfectly sense in rack and studio gear but is considered less desirable by people used to delay pedals.

LEVEL = the level of the entire block as part of the audio chain. So with Delay in series, LEVEL controls both dry and delayed signal. With Delay in parallel and MIX at 100%, LEVEL controls only the delayed signal's level.

INPUT GAIN = the level of the signal entering the Delay block. Often this is kept at 100%. But you can use this as an alternative to LEVEL to control the loudness of the block.

2. New mix rule: adjusting MIX with Delay in series, wil not affect the level of the dry signal, up to 50% MIX. So you just add delay instead of adjusting the balance.
This is NOT the same as maintaining the OVERALL block level.

3. Summing: when summing two separate signals, the overall level will increase when those levels reach a certain threshold together. A Delay block in series contains those two separate signals: dry + wet. I don't know the exact MIX value where this will happen (with LEVEL at 0dB and INPUT GAIN at 100%), but you can hear it of course. It doesn't happen at 25% MIX, but it will start to happen somewhere between, say, 40% and 50%.

4. Parallel: when putting the Delay in a separate row, the mix law does not apply. Set MIX at 100%, because you want only the 100% wet signal in that path, no dry signal because there already is a separate dry path. Keep LEVEL at 0 dB. And use INPUT GAIN to dial in the desired amount of delay. Or: keep INPUT GAIN at 100% and use LEVEL to dial in the desired amount of delay.

The "summing signals makes the overall signal louder" rule also applies to a parallel path. Here it's easier to control the overall level: to prevent the overall signal getting louder when increasing delay, set LEVEL at -6 dB, and attach the modifier to INPUT GAIN.

To do the same with Delay in series, just experiment with MIX values, and when you find out the Threshold, put that in the modifier's Max parameter.

 

[Bodde]

I meant that the last two pages were already dedicated to your personal support... ;-)

yes I know I'm a PITA

When it comes to Delays I am very critical because that's the effect that I use the most and is my favorite. Just want to get it right.
Thanks for your time, very good info. Really appreciate all the help!

 

[theedge269]

I'm very lost with my delay levels on my std axe! Half my presets use only a single delay, the other half use 2 in series. how should i set them up? a dry path then a delay path alongside? or keep them in the main chain? toying with the ingain / mix / level is really p-ing me off. what's the simplest way to get the SAME level for my dual delays and single delays? I need a 'theoretical' approach (if that makes sense) as I've spent the last year setting the song levels carefully with my band, only now to find that i need my previously parallel delays in series! placing them in series is much quieter than a single delay block. any help much appreciated!

 

[Rex]

Half my presets use only a single delay, the other half use 2 in series. how should i set them up?

It really, really depends on what you're trying to do with the delays. If you want your first delay to be processed by the second delay, they need to be in series with each other. If you don't want that, parallel is what you need.

what's the simplest way to get the SAME level for my dual delays and single delays?

Are you trying to keep your dry levels the same, make the second delay level equal to the first, keep your overall level the same, or...?

...I've spent the last year setting the song levels carefully with my band, only now to find that i need my previously parallel delays in series!

Why?


Not trying to be picky here. I just need to know what you're trying to do.

 

[smcrosby]

It may be annoying but it's a law of nature ...
Summing multiple signals above a certain threshold will increase the overall signal level.
Just make sure to keep the level of the delay trails below that threshold and you can get 50-50 without boosting the signal.

Thank you Yek! So - if I understand you - if you keep your series delay block mix levels tastefully between, say, 5% and 30%, you should be way below that "certain threshold" where you are concerned about noticeable cumulative superposition effects? :encouragement:

 

[clarky]

I've just come up with a "Clarky's new new mix rule"…

screw all the adding up and just goof with it until it sounds good..

 

[theedge269]

Rex - some detail for you. Example: 8th delay at 100% ingain / 8% mix, into a dot 8th at 100% ingain / 47% mix. So they're all in one chain, no separate dry signal. I'm an Edge fan and want to keep it in series. The first delay, the 8th just repeats once, but it's bounced again and again by the dot 8th which is around 4 repeats. Thing is, on songs that are 2 delays in series, I will always have the delays on, so it's not as though I'll be switching one or the other off during a song.

Why not parallel? Having the first delay bounced repeatedly by the 2nd really thickens the sound. The series vs parallel Edge debate still lingers...

Cheers for your help btw.

 

[Rex]

Rex - some detail for you. Example: 8th delay at 100% ingain / 8% mix, into a dot 8th at 100% ingain / 47% mix. So they're all in one chain, no separate dry signal. I'm an Edge fan and want to keep it in series. The first delay, the 8th just repeats once, but it's bounced again and again by the dot 8th which is around 4 repeats. Thing is, on songs that are 2 delays in series, I will always have the delays on, so it's not as though I'll be switching one or the other off during a song.

Thanks for the explanation. I see why you'd want to keep those two delays in series—with each other, at least.


I still think it would be simpler to break those two delays out into a separate row, running in parallel to your dry signal. Set both mixes to 100%, set ingain on the first delay to 100%, and set level on the first delay to 0 dB. Here's what that buys you:

• Your dry level is preserved;
• You can balance the two delays with ingain on the second delay;
• The Level knob on the second delay becomes your overall mix knob.

In other words, you make all your delay tweaks in the second delay block.


Or, you can do it all in one Dual Delay block.

 

[DukeOfPrunes]

The needs of the many outweigh those of the few.

pure logic dictates, turns out, it was a fallacy...

 

[theedge269]

Trying to get my head around this. Few more q's I think:

I'm using wah / distortion etc earlier in the chain. So, do I drop a line down after these fx to the parallel (delay only) chain? And after the two delays should I return the link to the upper row, or run the 2nd row to the end?

With both the ingain and mix of the first delay set at 100% - if I want that to be the very quiet delay do I just reduce the ingain of the 2nd delay to say, 8%?

What sets the balance of delay 2? The 2nd delay 'level' control?


What I've done this eve is (in ONE CHAIN) set the ingains to 100%, the mixes to 8% and 47%, and compensated for the volume drop by adding +1db level to the first, and +3.5db to the 2nd. How does this approach compare? I.e. if I used your method, would I be successfully avoiding the 'volume drop' issue? After all this is my main gripe! My 2290s don't give me this trouble!