need a cure against annoying dynamic icepicks

Hhuent

Hhuent

Experienced
fellas, I need your help. Today I´ve been auditioning cabs with my active wedge at gig levels. Before, at my home, I kept things at neighbour-friendly levels, did not hit the strings to hard, used a diffusor before the speaker also, heard a bit of harshness sometimes when I hit the strings a bit harder but all in all the AX8 sounded very nice.

Now, at gig levels, leaning into the strings, I was rewarded with some serious icepick tones.

Let my explain my setup:
AX 8: simple preset: comp (factorysettings) - amp (Tucana and Shirley, mostly cleans slightly breaming up) - cab (mostly 4 x 12" TAF types, some OH,some others as well) - reverb.
Monitor: FRFR - flat EQ
guitar: Strat middle position

The problem:
Whenever I hit the strings a bit harder and play with the dynamics, there is a short icepick tone for a part of a second, the higher the tones the worse. That is to be expected you might say, hitting the strings hader results to a trebly peak first. But it´s pretty much icepicks I hear instead. This can be done with every string, sure enough it is worse with the high strings. Strangely enough Chords sound terrific. In other words: If it´s a single string it sounds nasty. If I hit , say, E, B and G-string playing a chord, the problem is diminished. The more strings you hit the better the sound.

What I tried:
- differnt cabs (some TAF cabs are really a bit on the treble side I think, but they sound "vibrant" to me): It can be reproduced with any cab that has more presence I would say.
- amps hi cut down to 6 k or more
- cabs hi cut down to 6 k or more
- filter and EQ blocks before and after the cab
All this alters the character of the original cab sound to an extent I do not like when you overdo it. But the icepicks are still there when you hit the strings a bit more.
- augment Drive and Master of the amp to add low mids and a little compression

I think it is the dynamics of the amp block that are to blame. The peak of the tone level after the attack gives me those icepicks for half a second, so I tried a lot of the amp knobs (dynamics, char etc.) to find the "culprit" but to no success. I don´t know if there is a way to reduce those dynamics and peaks without a compressor and I do not know how to dial in different settings as they interact, so my guess.

Sorry for my poor English when I try to describe the matter. ( and yes, the word cure in my headline should be written with an "e" :))

Now, do you have a cure against this icepick behaviour?
 
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Do you have a different guitar with humbuckers you can try?
I think you are on the right track, hi cut about 5K.
 
scottp said:
Do you have a different guitar with humbuckers you can try?
I think you are on the right track, hi cut about 5K.
Click to expand...
Yep, but this did not help. I researched into this Fletcher-Munson thing and what not, don't want to be to academic here.
I realize the sound would be fine when just playing cords. The icepicks are more apparent when
- playing at gig levels
- and most important: when leaning into the strings and playing with a harder attack. Single and higher strings make it worse.
There must be a solution dealing with amp settings apart from EQ and Hi Cut. The problem is the dynamics. Loud and hard hit tones result in icepicks. Are there advanced amp settings that can cure this "dynamic" ( not general) harshness? Or are these TAF cabs a problem when playing at gig levels?
How can I fix this?
 
Try some different IRs.

If you really feel inclined, there is the Character and Character Frequency in the advanced section of the Amp block. You can set it to around the frequency you're hearing, and set a negative value so that the louder you play, the more subdued that frequency becomes.
 
The cure
PEQ before amp
Page right to filter 5
Set to Blocking
Then bring Freq back to taste

You may want to go back to the amp block and raise treb/Mids/Presence

This works flawlessly.
 
I would not hi cut in the amp block but the hi cut in the cab block should have done the trick. It can be your FRFR too. I had some ice picking with K12 (even after doing my hi cuts) it was bearable but there and for long gigs it would wear on me about. When I got my RCF (coaxial) that went away with no tweaking done to patch
 
A different approach: is that an issue with the band playing? It is probably a great thing that can help you add "manliness" to the notes you play with your right hand.

I bet it sounds amazing in a band context.
 
I'm just guessing here, but since it seems that you've tested in a logical manner: the issue appears to be related to output at volume, and not in the AX8 modeling: the culprit may be the FRFR system. It may aspire to be FRFR, but can't actually achieve it. At high volumes the speaker/cabinet system could be generating its own upper harmonics, not just reproducing what its given. This would make sense to me in that chords sound good - lots of energy across the spectrum, and the speaker can reproduce it: but when a single note with a lot of transient energy is played - that energy can't be restricted to reproduction focused on a narrow frequency and some goes off as ice pickey overtones . In a word: Harmonic distortion. I've come across this with guitar speakers in undersized enclosures, budget PAs, etc.

philipacamaniac said:
... there is the Character and Character Frequency in the advanced section of the Amp block. You can set it to around the frequency you're hearing, and set a negative value so that the louder you play, the more subdued that frequency becomes.
Click to expand...

This approach should be effective, especially if the issue is related to how you dial in the amp and the guitar signal. However, if its an outboard reproduction problem, this won't translate to using it with other systems.

Another work around to try: would be the studio compressor with as fast an attack as possible, a medium fast release and a high threshold and ratio: acting as a limiter that is just going to trim those transient peaks (that go above say -6 or -3db) down to where they won't distort at the speaker, but never affect most of the signal. In the signal chain near the output would make sense: as its purpose is to condition the signal to the speakers, and if you were to plug into studio monitors or real cabs, you would turn it off. But, you may prefer the limiting before the amp modeling. Do it by ear. Good luck!
 
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My guess is your FRFR system has a horn for a tweeter. These are notorious for generating lots of distortion when driven hard.
 
The Axe-Fx has a 'Pick Attack' parameter in the Amp block that can go (+) or (-). Never used it and don't know if it is in the AX8, but thought I would mention it.
 
Are you sure it isn't fret buzz that didn't bother you in the past because you weren't using a speaker that would reproduce the high frequency portion of it? The tweeter (horn in most FRFR) really bring out the high frequency content of fret rattle.
 
Thank you guys and sorry for getting back so late. I will try your solutions when I'm back from my 5 day business trip and report back.
Cliff, I will check the specs of my monitor, a Dynacord axm. It has a coaxial speaker, but if the tweeter is a horn indeed, would you recommend another cab?
 
I checked the specs of my monitor. It is a Dynacord powered wedge in the 1100 bucks range, no cheapo.
The speaker is a DCX 12300, 12-inch/1.75-inch 2-way coaxial transducer with lightweight neodymium compression driver.
Does it mean there is a horn incolved? Or a system that is prone to distortion? This wedge has a very good rep. Is the speaker system used different from the usual suspects like CLRs etc.?
 
Hhuent said:
I checked the specs of my monitor. It is a Dynacord powered wedge in the 1100 bucks range, no cheapo.
The speaker is a DCX 12300, 12-inch/1.75-inch 2-way coaxial transducer with lightweight neodymium compression driver.
Does it mean there is a horn incolved? Or a system that is prone to distortion? This wedge has a very good rep. Is the speaker system used different from the usual suspects like CLRs etc.?
Click to expand...
Hi Cut in the cab settings always works for me plus check the bright switch in amp settings
 
Just a short feedback here. I tried different solutions as described, also most of your suggestions which I want to thank you for. My findings so far just in case other members are experiencing the same issue:
- different cabs make a difference: I like the vibrant feel of the TAR IRs, but they give me icepick trebles when digging harder into the high E and B string. This is less the case with other cabs but then again they do not sound that "vibrant".
- fiddling with the parameter pick attack unfortunately did not result in an audible difference.
- Blocking filter 5 (around 3.5 kHz) of a PEQ placed before the amp works but it altered the sound to be a bit dull.
- tweaking the character settings in the amp block (on the dynamics page, not the advanced page as suggested, right?) seemed the most logical step to me but somehow altered the sound in an unpleasant way. I chose a frequency of 3 kHz and a negative value even to all the way down but the unwanted effect did not disappear. Maybe I did not set it up right.
I have tried this with my 12" wedge and also with my new AKG 702 headphones that translate pretty well to the monitor so I guess the monitor can't be blamed only.
My best result was: a filter block with an extremely narrow notch filter at precisely 3 kHz and a q value of around 5. Maybe another way of blocking filter 5 in a PEQ and raising the amps presence to compensate. Still I feel the best bet would have been working with the character settings and I did not do it right. What do you think?
 
So try increasing the ratio and setting the knee to hard. Adjust the threshold so that it only works on the louder notes
 
Just out of curiosity, do you have the ability to close mic and amp (with the amp in another room) and to listen to the mic'd amp through your speaker? You might find that what you are hearing is perfectly normal for a mic'd cabinet sound.
 
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