How Many Watts Do You Actually Need? PA Speakers

M

MattJR

Member
Hey guys, I've made a few posts here already in preparation for my AX8 which just got delivered a few hours ago! So a question I'd like to ask in regards to amplification is how many watts do you actually need? At the moment I'm looking into the Mackie series and am having trouble deciding between either the HD1221 or HD1531. Now personally I don't have the money at the moment to invest in more than one speaker so I really want to get this right. If I intend to be playing at home, band practice AND live with this speaker, will the HD1221 get it done or will I need the HD1531 to really punch through and keep up with another guitarist, bassist and drummer? I will predominantly be playing the heavier types of metal with this speaker although will also use it in a variety of other settings. Thanks!

EDIT: Also am looking into the HD1521s as well :)
 
I would look at the Yamaha dsr112 or Jbl SRX812P before those Mackies. Forget the watts, go listen to the boxes up loud and make the choice.

3 way boxes are big and heavy.
Don't forgot that one when looking at the 1531.
 
Is the cab going to be your only source of amplification? If you're playing metal type stuff, it's probably safe to assume you won't be playing in quiet little coffee shops, so you'll likely need a fair amount of volume to project and keep up. If you are going to be utilizing a house system or band PA to reach the audience, then you only need enough volume for you and your band mates to hear you on stage.

Having extra power in reserve is not a bad thing. The down sides are cost and size/weight. You can always turn a powerful system down, but you can't turn a maxed out system up more if needed. The trick is finding that balance, and that will depend on lots of things like your budget, your band's volume, venue size, etc. Also keep in mind that watts don't always equal volume. 50 watts into an efficient speaker can easily be louder than 100 watts into a crap speaker. Manufacturers use specs as selling points and sometimes get creative with the details. Like Callan said, try them out in person at high volume to level the playing field.
 
Always remember: you need volume, not watts. That question is dependent how much continuous power and how sensitive of a speaker. That said, the reviews on the Mackies are pretty poor, I'd look to a JBL or EV in that price range instead.

Also take into account that PA speakers are meant to be used in arrays to cover large events. You don't get good results from a single stupidly loud point source, no matter how much power you have.
 
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Mackie uses fake wattage numbers that don't mean anything. I bet when they say 1600 watts they really mean between 500 to 800 watts RMS.

I recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR10 powered cabs. I have a pair of Yamaha DXR12 powered cabs but prefer the smaller DXR10 because they are just as loud, smaller and lighter weight. The only reason I have the DXR12 is because I got a killer deal on them at Guitar Center and included a pair of speaker stands all for less than they could sell me a pair of DXR10.

Some people like the QSC K10 and K12 powered cabs but I found their high end to cause ear fatigue.

I tried out a ton of powered cabs at Guitar Center and the Yamaha DXR and QSC K cabs were the lightest weight and loudest while staying clear and not distorting. There was one other brand that sounded surprisingly good and I think they were called either Alto or Harbinger but I can't remember what model but I remember them being one of the lowest priced.

If you can only afford 1 cab, I recommend getting a cheap speaker stand too because if it's at ear level you won't have to crank the volume to reach your ears. Some people use the cabs like monitors and tilt them up but if you're playing on a small stage it's hard to stand at the correct angle to hear them well. When I put mine on stands, I save at least 30% of volume. Also, if you adjust your presets with the cabs on stands, you will be hearing a very direct sound, so they will translate really good when recording direct and going into a PA direct.
 
GotMetalBoy said:
Mackie uses fake wattage numbers that don't mean anything. I bet when they say 1600 watts they really mean between 500 to 800 watts RMS.
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A few companies rate their specs at PEAK wattage, the loudest it can go momentarily. Most others tell the RMS or Program like you mentioned. So it's a real number, just not the one we need to know :)
 
Used to use a 350w 12". Stupid loud. Pretty heavy. Currently I am using 8" monitors. Db technologies fm series. 200 watts. They sort of sound a bit dull and boxy, as to be suspected from 8" reasonably cheap speakers. But they are plenty loud to hang in my situation and I have some power to spare.

That said we don't play stupid loud.

And I use two for stereo.

The 12" did sound yummier... I recently bought a couple of 10" for vocal monitors, 300w, and they sound fuller and way less boxy. Funnily also brighter which tells me they used lesser tweeters in the 8".
 
Dazzl1113 said:
Though I have a CLR at home, I have to give a strong recommendation for the new Alto TrueSonic TS212 units. Amazing performance for $299/each and super light.
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That Alto cab looks like the one I tried out that I mentioned in my post above. I couldn't remember the name of it. It held up against the Yamaha DXR and QSC K powered cabs and was half the price.
 
Callan said:
I would look at the Yamaha dsr112 or Jbl SRX812P before those Mackies. Forget the watts, go listen to the boxes up loud and make the choice.

3 way boxes are big and heavy.
Don't forgot that one when looking at the 1531.
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Thanks, I'll look into those models. Also, I've recently learnt about 3 way speakers as opposed to 2 way speakers. I know all the brands you mentioned have 3 way options. What are the main differences and do you think I will need a 3 way speaker if I'm going to be playing loud metal shows?
 
mr_fender said:
Is the cab going to be your only source of amplification? If you're playing metal type stuff, it's probably safe to assume you won't be playing in quiet little coffee shops, so you'll likely need a fair amount of volume to project and keep up. If you are going to be utilizing a house system or band PA to reach the audience, then you only need enough volume for you and your band mates to hear you on stage.

Having extra power in reserve is not a bad thing. The down sides are cost and size/weight. You can always turn a powerful system down, but you can't turn a maxed out system up more if needed. The trick is finding that balance, and that will depend on lots of things like your budget, your band's volume, venue size, etc. Also keep in mind that watts don't always equal volume. 50 watts into an efficient speaker can easily be louder than 100 watts into a crap speaker. Manufacturers use specs as selling points and sometimes get creative with the details. Like Callan said, try them out in person at high volume to level the playing field.
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Ideally the speaker would be enough to handle any situation, including one that has a very bad or limited FOH. I'm looking for a speaker that can keep up with all the other band members and one that can handle the lows and highs found in metal. Some new info that I've found out about the Mackie speaker is that the 1221 is two way while the 1531 is 3 way. Are three ways preferred because they're supposed to have more control of the lows, highs and mids?
 
GotMetalBoy said:
Mackie uses fake wattage numbers that don't mean anything. I bet when they say 1600 watts they really mean between 500 to 800 watts RMS.

I recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR10 powered cabs. I have a pair of Yamaha DXR12 powered cabs but prefer the smaller DXR10 because they are just as loud, smaller and lighter weight. The only reason I have the DXR12 is because I got a killer deal on them at Guitar Center and included a pair of speaker stands all for less than they could sell me a pair of DXR10.

Some people like the QSC K10 and K12 powered cabs but I found their high end to cause ear fatigue.

I tried out a ton of powered cabs at Guitar Center and the Yamaha DXR and QSC K cabs were the lightest weight and loudest while staying clear and not distorting. There was one other brand that sounded surprisingly good and I think they were called either Alto or Harbinger but I can't remember what model but I remember them being one of the lowest priced.

If you can only afford 1 cab, I recommend getting a cheap speaker stand too because if it's at ear level you won't have to crank the volume to reach your ears. Some people use the cabs like monitors and tilt them up but if you're playing on a small stage it's hard to stand at the correct angle to hear them well. When I put mine on stands, I save at least 30% of volume. Also, if you adjust your presets with the cabs on stands, you will be hearing a very direct sound, so they will translate really good when recording direct and going into a PA direct.
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I'm very new to these types of speakers and I found out quickly that a lot of people use the Mackies when it comes to metal. Do you know much about the Yamahas and QSCs when it comes to being able to handle the heavier stuff in regards to the lows and highs commonly found in the genre? And I've asked a few of the other members who have replied here, but what are the main things I should consider when looking at 2 way vs 3 way speakers? I'll look into getting a stand as well, thanks :)
 
MattJR said:
I'm very new to these types of speakers and I found out quickly that a lot of people use the Mackies when it comes to metal. Do you know much about the Yamahas and QSCs when it comes to being able to handle the heavier stuff in regards to the lows and highs commonly found in the genre? And I've asked a few of the other members who have replied here, but what are the main things I should consider when looking at 2 way vs 3 way speakers? I'll look into getting a stand as well, thanks :)
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Do you have any recordings of the music you're playing or what are some of the bands you want to sound like? Your description is to vague and many people will interpret "heavier types of metal" differently because the word "Metal" is a huge category.

A lot will depend on the bassists role in the music. If you want the bassist to be heard, you don't want the guitars to have to much low end. Depending on your tuning, you can usually safely cut the guitars low end at 100hz.This will make some room for the bassist to be heard.

You also have to decide if you want your whole band to sound good or just a single instrument being highlighted. If you want the whole band to sound good, you will need to adjust the frequencies of the guitars and bass so they all have their own space, so no instruments are smothering the other. It will feel awkward at first playing through a frequency adjusted rig because you won't have as much low end shacking your body but it will make you and the rest of the band sound so much clearer and defined. That being said, I think 15' speakers are overkill for guitars and 2way 10' or 12' FRFR cabs sound the best.
 
This is a very old topic on the Fractal Audio forum, but I think it's good to revisit it for review.

If you're used to 100W of tube power into a 16-ohm cab, then you should probably consider a SS amp that can deliver 500W-600W (bridged) - or more - into 8 ohms. The reasons for this are two-fold.

First, with SS power, you'll definitely want lots of clean headroom. To match a tube power amp, a rule of thumb is "Five times the tube wattage, for solid-state." This is not because tube amp watts are any 'louder' than solid state watts -- a watt is a watt, no matter where it comes from. It's more because, when overdriven, tube power amps ease into a musical type of harmonic distortion, whereas solid-state amps exhibit nasty-sounding distortion when they are overdriven. Five times the power ensures that the solid state amplifier has plenty of headroom to handle musical peaks, without ever going into overdriven states or producing any nasty distortions. Tons of SS power will give you the air-moving *THUMP* that you're used to feeling.

Second, most SS amps are power-rated into 8-ohm loads. Now, you can certainly drive a 16-ohm cab with a SS amp that's rated at 8-ohm, because most SS amps have no output transformers that require impedance matching. However, if you double the load impedance (using a 16-ohm cab instead of an 8-ohm cab), this will roughly halve the amp's effective output power.

So - If you're used to the volume levels of 100W of tube power into a 16-ohm cab, then look for a SS power amp that can deliver 500W - 600W (bridged) into 8 ohms. The good news is that powerful SS amps of this size are generally both much lighter (and less expensive!) than comparable tube-powered amplifiers.
 
I hear a lot of good things about the Yamaha DXR10. At $600 though, I start to think that the Matrrix FR10 at $679 might be a better deal. The FR10 is rated at 300 watts, which significantly less than the DXR10's 700, but I know those numbers are not as dramatic as they seem.
 
Your needs for stage sound depend on your current or planned band setup.

Do you rely on a big back line of amps for bass and guitar? Like a full or half stack or more Marshall setup? Does your stage rig need to compete with a big bass rig or heavy hitting drummer with a big kit on a riser that needs to hear your stage rig too?

You can't count on a fairly cheap single PA powered speaker to replace a big amp back line. In that scenario you are probably better off using an SS power amp and your 4x12 cabs on stage. Or two powered speakers strategically placed for you and the rest of the band.
 
GotMetalBoy said:
Do you have any recordings of the music you're playing or what are some of the bands you want to sound like? Your description is to vague and many people will interpret "heavier types of metal" differently because the word "Metal" is a huge category.

A lot will depend on the bassists role in the music. If you want the bassist to be heard, you don't want the guitars to have to much low end. Depending on your tuning, you can usually safely cut the guitars low end at 100hz.This will make some room for the bassist to be heard.

You also have to decide if you want your whole band to sound good or just a single instrument being highlighted. If you want the whole band to sound good, you will need to adjust the frequencies of the guitars and bass so they all have their own space, so no instruments are smothering the other. It will feel awkward at first playing through a frequency adjusted rig because you won't have as much low end shacking your body but it will make you and the rest of the band sound so much clearer and defined. That being said, I think 15' speakers are overkill for guitars and 2way 10' or 12' FRFR cabs sound the best.
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I'll have to read more into the whole frequency thing I think. I want to be able to hit the kind of lows that bands like Meshuggah, Rings of Saturn, I Valiance, Cattle Decapitation, Thy Art Is Murder etc. Also as a side question, what would the solution be if you turn up to a gig and the house sound system is very limited and only run vocal PAs for example? If your main source of amplification is a powered PA like a QSC or Mackie do you have to rely on that to be able to carry the sound to a crowd? And if so, is this scenario one where having a 3 way speaker would be ideal? Thanks
 
barhrecords said:
Your needs for stage sound depend on your current or planned band setup.

Do you rely on a big back line of amps for bass and guitar? Like a full or half stack or more Marshall setup? Does your stage rig need to compete with a big bass rig or heavy hitting drummer with a big kit on a riser that needs to hear your stage rig too?

You can't count on a fairly cheap single PA powered speaker to replace a big amp back line. In that scenario you are probably better off using an SS power amp and your 4x12 cabs on stage. Or two powered speakers strategically placed for you and the rest of the band.
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I feel like I'm missing something. If you don't run a 4x12 in your backline and only have PA speakers as your source of amplification, how then would sound hit the front row in an effective way? Do they just miss out then? Obviously the FOH will cover almost everyone else but I've heard it's possible for the people in the front row to not cop the sound as much as those behind them if you're not running a 4x12. Obviously not everyone goes for the power amp + cab route so how do people who run powered speakers generally run their on stage gear? Thanks
 
MattJR said:
I'll have to read more into the whole frequency thing I think. I want to be able to hit the kind of lows that bands like Meshuggah, Rings of Saturn, I Valiance, Cattle Decapitation, Thy Art Is Murder etc. Also as a side question, what would the solution be if you turn up to a gig and the house sound system is very limited and only run vocal PAs for example? If your main source of amplification is a powered PA like a QSC or Mackie do you have to rely on that to be able to carry the sound to a crowd? And if so, is this scenario one where having a 3 way speaker would be ideal? Thanks
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I've been in that scenario before and my 2 Yamaha DXR12 cabs had enough power. They can get close to the loudness of a full 4x12 stack. I've played with bassists that have a pair of 4x10 cabs and guitarists with a 100 watt tube amp into a 4x12 cab and I could be heard. The only guitar rig that has over powered me is the Mesa Boogie Triaxis into the 290 power amp into a 4x12 cab.

Regarding adjusting frequencies to fit in a mix, so each instrument sounds defined, find the the lowest fundamental frequency which is lowest note of the instrument and then multiply it by 2 or 4 and then try cutting either of those frequency in the Cab Block.

Examples:
  • A standard tuned 6 string guitar lowest note is E2 which has a frequency of 82.407 Hz. One octave higher is E3 164.81 Hz and two octaves higher is E4 329.63 Hz. Try Cutting the low end in the Cab Block between 164 Hz to 330 Hz.
  • A standard tuned 4 string bass lowest note is E1 which has a frequency of 41.203 Hz. One octave higher is E2 82.407 Hz and two octaves higher is E3 164.81 Hz. Try Cutting the low end in the Cab Block between 82 Hz to 165 Hz.

Here's a chart of notes and their frequencies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation#Table_of_note_frequencies
 
MattJR said:
I feel like I'm missing something. If you don't run a 4x12 in your backline and only have PA speakers as your source of amplification, how then would sound hit the front row in an effective way? Do they just miss out then? Obviously the FOH will cover almost everyone else but I've heard it's possible for the people in the front row to not cop the sound as much as those behind them if you're not running a 4x12. Obviously not everyone goes for the power amp + cab route so how do people who run powered speakers generally run their on stage gear? Thanks
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Not necessarily. Guitar cabinets are notoriously directional. PA cabs usually have much wider dispersion patterns, especially in the upper mids and highs. With many guitar cabs, the people sitting off-axis might be getting a muffled version of your sound while the people sitting directly in front of the cab are getting a face full of high treble death beam. A pair of PA speakers angled slightly outwards would likely give a much more uniform response to the whole front row.
 
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