How Do You Deal With Engineer Ignorance?

You hit upon one of the downsides as my job as a software developer talking with customers and project managers who dig in their heels.

Has this drummer never heard of a bass player named Geddy Lee from a little band called Rush? Geddy goes direct on all of Rush's live shows.
 
Since the drummer/engineer is bringing up a very valid point/technique regarding amps and cabs, I don't think it's his ignorance of sound. Rather, I think he's ignorant of exactly what the axe fx is and does, as many people are. And so he's erroneously trying to apply one to the other.

The problem here, then, is educating him on the gear - try a different approach to more clearly explain your rig to him, including much of what's been explained above.
 
rodzimguitar68 said:
Why doesn't he understand that the sound that comes out of the rack already has cabinets/mics/amps/effects baked in,
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If we went with occam's razor, it's because no one explained it to him clearly. Having started a new tech heavy job recently, it's amazing the difference in comprehension between when first learning something compared to after a day or two of doing it yourself repeatedly. We all learn different ways. Bashing him for not understanding a new piece of gear the first night he encounters it is a bit harsh.
 
fox5150 said:
"what if I (as in him) want some guitar ambience in my monitors".
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If you'll be sending a direct feed from the Axe to the mixer, then the drummer can have as much or as little additional guitar as he wants in his monitor. Why doesn't this former engineer understand this?
 
rodzimguitar68 said:
Why doesn't he understand that the sound that comes out of the rack already has cabinets/mics/amps/effects baked in, before it leaves the device? You can then reproduce that with a miniature on-stage sound system called a CLR, or you can send the output to the PA. It simulates a guitar into an amp into a cabinet with a mic in front of - you custom tailor every aspect and control/dictate it down to the angle and distance away from the grill. Why would you want to do all that, and then filter all of that again with an SM57 on the CLR?
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ArrowHead said:
Since the drummer/engineer is bringing up a very valid point/technique regarding amps and cabs, I don't think it's his ignorance of sound. Rather, I think he's ignorant of exactly what the axe fx is and does, as many people are. And so he's erroneously trying to apply one to the other.

The problem here, then, is educating him on the gear - try a different approach to more clearly explain your rig to him, including much of what's been explained above.
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I think this is fundamentally where the problem lies - he doesn't understand that the Axe-FX models everything. If anything, this is just as much down to me not explaining it very well, as it's obviously new technology to someone who hasn't come across this concept before (nobody reading this obviously!). He's considering it as the traditional amp and cab setup, with the Axe-FX as the "amp" and the CLR as the "cab".

I just need to explain it better :D
 
rodzimguitar68 said:
If you'll be sending a direct feed from the Axe to the mixer, then the drummer can have as much or as little additional guitar as he wants in his monitor. Why doesn't this former engineer understand this?
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At this point, as OP even noted, he was likely just grabbing excuses to save face. In the end, that's what most arguments are. The short and simple is he didn't realize the primary difference between an amp + cab and a modeler + FRFR. And not realizing it, he though he was schooling the guitarist on the difference between an amp DI and a mic (like a bass rig, for example).

Simple misunderstandings, because us artists argue with passion rather than simple, clear explanations.
 
Since I started playing professionally in 2000, I have not once encountered a sound man who wasn't thrilled that I went direct.

BTW, an engineer is someone with an engineering degree from an accredited university. The term is grossly misused in the audio field. An audio engineer is someone with a degree from such a university who designs audio circuits or acoustic systems, not someone who twists knobs on a mixer.
 
steadystate said:
Since I started playing professionally in 2000, I have not once encountered a sound man who wasn't thrilled that I went direct.

BTW, an engineer is someone with an engineering degree from an accredited university. The term is grossly misused in the audio field. An audio engineer is someone with a degree from such a university who designs audio circuits or acoustic systems, not someone who twists knobs on a mixer.
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Engineers also drive trains, and create aliens. You're being way too pedantic. Reality is, and audio engineer is both... and more. Does a philosopher require a philosophy degree?
 
I knew I'd get a response to that. :)

The term engineer is overused, to the point where it is becoming meaningless.

Does a doctor need a degree to be a doctor?
 
Exactly, steadystate. In the land of DIY world, there is no more overused term than "sound engineer". I think the only bigger joke is when people start talking about how they can "master" your music.

I nailed some posts together once. Does that make me a home builder?
 
steadystate said:
I knew I'd get a response to that. :)

The term engineer is overused, to the point where it is becoming meaningless.

Does a doctor need a degree to be a doctor?
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Since the term Doctor is from the same root as Doctorate, yes. It's kinda the definition. Meanwhile, you're still being pedantic. And still incorrect... an audio engineer is a guy that twists knobs. With or without a degree. The occupation far pre-dates the academia. There is also the same title for one who designs audio circuits. Because often, before either courses existed in schools, it was the same guy doing both in the studios.

Audio engineers have existed in the recording world since it's invention. The study and teaching of said profession has only existed in the last 30-40 years or so. Chicken and egg, gentleman. It's not over-used, you're just using it wrong.
 
dpeterson said:
A monkey can turn knobs... good "sound guys" mix... huge difference.
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There's good and bad at everything. But a degree does not determine it in this case. Nor is it needed to hold the title in a studio. The guy twiddling the knobs is the audio engineer. The guy calling the shots and steering the shape of the recording is the producer. The guy paying $60 an hour and snorting cocaine in the lounge is the guitarist.
 
Just simply get him to put his 'engineer's' ear down at speaker level and then, while he's slowly working out that it's a FR cab and is basically similar in function to a stage monitor, give him a good kick in the hole.....
 
ArrowHead said:
Since the term Doctor is from the same root as Doctorate, yes. It's kinda the definition. Meanwhile, you're still being pedantic. And still incorrect... an audio engineer is a guy that twists knobs. With or without a degree. The occupation far pre-dates the academia. There is also the same title for one who designs audio circuits. Because often, before either courses existed in schools, it was the same guy doing both in the studios.

Audio engineers have existed in the recording world since it's invention. The study and teaching of said profession has only existed in the last 30-40 years or so. Chicken and egg, gentleman. It's not over-used, you're just using it wrong.
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Some of your points are well-taken. "Engineering" is broad and has been around for thousands of years in its broadest terms. However, the guys who change light bulbs at the local casinos are called engineers, and work in the engineering department. The OP's drummer considers himself an engineer. The term is over-used. If anyone can call themselves one with no credentials whatsoever, for any application whatsoever, then the term has little to no meaning. We are not in ancient times. The academia now exists, and for a reason. In certain fields, peoples lives can depend on the qualifications of an engineer.

If you are applying for an engineering position (electrical, mechanical, naval, aerospace, marine, chemical, etc.), and you have no degree, good luck getting the job. People can call themselves anything they like. That much is true. But IMO, a guy who mixes sound is no more of an engineer than a garbage man is a sanitation engineer, or a guy who changes light bulbs is a maintenance engineer. You have your limits to the term, I have mine. "Specialist", "expert", "designer", etc., are just a few of the dozens of terms that could be used to describe a specialized skill that has little to do with engineering. The word is over-used.
 
The fact that the Axe-FX models everything is irrelevant if you aren't convinced of the quality. Maybe putting another modeler through a cab and mic'ing it would be the way to go. So selling on this point might not be the best strategy. A/B'ing may also not work if the guy doesn't have the ears or just isn't being objective or open-minded (a blind test might work if a third party he trusts administers the test). My advise is to let someone else do the selling. There are several rig run-through videos on YouTube showing highly credible people taking the Axe-FX straight to FOH. Or find someone he respects that will support your point of view. The best way is to come up with a way for him to come to the conclusion himself and think it was his idea but I can't think of a strategy for that. At the end of the day you could just say F-you, you worry about your drum tone and let me worry about my guitar tone.
 
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