How Do You Deal With Engineer Ignorance?

You have your limits to the term, I have mine. "Specialist", "expert", "designer", etc., are just a few of the dozens of terms that could be used to describe a specialized skill that has little to do with engineering. The word is used incorrectly.

Fixed ! :mrgreen
 
The term is over-used. If anyone can call themselves one with no credentials whatsoever, for any application whatsoever, then the term has little to no meaning. We are not in ancient times. The academia now exists, and for a reason. In certain fields, peoples lives can depend on the qualifications of an engineer.

As a point of reference, in Canada the term "engineer" is legally protected. If I work in Information Technology and want to call myself a "Systems Engineer" I have to be an accredited member of the professional engineering body in my province and "have the ring". Being, and working as, an engineer in Canada has legal responsibilities and liabilities.

Terry.
 
My suggestion to the OP is to take the high road (sounds like that's your plan). I remember only a few short years ago when very few here on the forum understood what FRFR monitors were all about. I still see discussions pop up where it's clear the poster is unsure of the difference between a guitar cab, an extended range guitar cab and a FRFR system (not that I want to get into that here). My point is that there's a learning curve, for all of us.

The sound tech that we've worked with for an occasional gig over the years really knows his stuff. Today he doesn't given a second thought to plugging an XLR into my AxeFX. Three years ago he insisted on mic'ing my FRFR monitor, and he tried mixing it with my direct signal. I explained why it was unnecessary, but that didn't stop him. So, he gave it a shot and could hear for himself what I had been explaining. He needed to work that out for himself. Everyone has their own learning style, and some will need to touch, feel and hear it. No harm in that.

Terry.
 
Well I was going to post "two to the back of his head!" :lol but then I read that he is a friend too and then I reviewed the Forum Rules and realized the potential liability and that it would be really wrong to post "two to the back of his head!" and so I decided not to post... "two to the back of his head!" ;)
 
I knew I'd get a response to that. :)

The term engineer is overused, to the point where it is becoming meaningless.

Does a doctor need a degree to be a doctor?

Totally agree with you. As a licensed Professional Engineer in Ontario, Canada (P.Eng. Canada or PE in the USA) it is actually against the law to call yourself an Engineer unless you have obtained the qualifications, many do without consequence.

As a 16 yr old gas pumper I used to call myself a refuelling technician - sounded important, lol.
 
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its my understanding that the term "audio engineer" comes from the fact that all the first audio engineers were in fact, qualified electrical engineers. back in the 30s and 20s or whatever, the only people who recorded artists were the technically gifted and those who had a thorough understanding of electronics. im guessing thats why the word "engineer" stuck around when "electrical" changed into "audio"
so yes i'd agree, nowdays it is a misuse of the word
 
Since I started playing professionally in 2000, I have not once encountered a sound man who wasn't thrilled that I went direct.

BTW, an engineer is someone with an engineering degree from an accredited university. The term is grossly misused in the audio field. An audio engineer is someone with a degree from such a university who designs audio circuits or acoustic systems, not someone who twists knobs on a mixer.

Agreed. Someone with a diploma is a technician in my understanding of the words. Someone who twiddles knobs without qualification is a pretender! :D

Mind you, this brings with it all the nightmarish cross accreditation scenarios. I have met several people with masters degrees in music technology from a certain university (accredited) who have asked me what phase was. A degree is worthless without the form of intuitive understanding that experience gives you. In this regard, give me an experienced technician over a newly qualified engineer ANY day.
 
Agreed. Someone with a diploma is a technician in my understanding of the words. Someone who twiddles knobs without qualification is a pretender! :D

Mind you, this brings with it all the nightmarish cross accreditation scenarios. I have met several people with masters degrees in music technology from a certain university (accredited) who have asked me what phase was. A degree is worthless without the form of intuitive understanding that experience gives you. In this regard, give me an experienced technician over a newly qualified engineer ANY day.

As a Professional Engineer I have to agree with you, there is no substitute for hands on practical experience. We have designers that sit in the office all day without ever seeing what it's like on the job site. Generally the best engineers have the technical knowledge as well as the hands on practical experience that allow them to make the best decisions. Same as a doctor, or a musician who studies music but never gets out and just jams a blues tune with others.
 
Agreed. Someone with a diploma is a technician in my understanding of the words. Someone who twiddles knobs without qualification is a pretender! :D

Mind you, this brings with it all the nightmarish cross accreditation scenarios. I have met several people with masters degrees in music technology from a certain university (accredited) who have asked me what phase was. A degree is worthless without the form of intuitive understanding that experience gives you. In this regard, give me an experienced technician over a newly qualified engineer ANY day.

This!
I work with an engineer turned electronic tech. Time means nothing to him. This guy can design nearly anything electrical, but in order for him to troubleshoot a problem on a piece of electronic's, he has to know how it was designed first. Go figure...:roll I also work with another tech that made engineer, the opposite of the other guy. He "gets" it. Like what the above states...
 
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"who also used to engineer." Why is it that he "used to"? Did he try to mic the mains and double the output?
 
oh that's like the time someone put 2 microphones on my lead singer so he would be louder through their 100 watt pa system. cuz 2 is louder than 1. duh.
 
:encouragement:I think the OP's original question has been mostly answered. What would I do? Just let him learn it for himself in his own way, he'll come around... And the Scott's method is what I would do for a real gig situation if it were me.

In a technical snafu on a reunion gig this past summer, I ended up mic'ing one of my FBT 12ma FR/FR monitors with an SM-57. I know, why didn't I just plug the xlr into the jack on the back of the FBT? Long story short: Beautiful sunset during sound check, Rain storm, (actually, a torrential downpour) Mixer not working, Audience ready, no sound out of AXE Rig, Got it working that way in 20 seconds. To be honest, I forgot all about the jack on the back, but in hindsight, the XLR cable wasn't really long enough to reach without moving the monitor, etc...

I couldn't really tell how it sounded out front, I can never really tell, and I'm usually never satisfied with it, so I didn't really think about it, I just played and had a lot of fun. I can't believe how many positive comments I got on my tone. The phrase "Sounds better than the actual album" was used more than once. (It was a cover band).

While I think mic'ing a FR/FR monitor is not going to sound as good as direct, I think because of the Fractal's superior tone, along with the FBT being coaxial, and James Santiago's cab IRs, my FOH tone probably sounded better than my last amp did even mic'd... Just sayin' we're gettin' spoiled here... just my $0.02, YMMV.

oh that's like the time someone put 2 microphones on my lead singer so he would be louder through their 100 watt pa system. cuz 2 is louder than 1. duh.

In the good old days, didn't they used to use 2 mic's with one polarity reversed, like when the Beatles played Shea's Stadium, for example? Sing into only one, and you should be able to get more gain before feedback? Just a thought.

You hit upon one of the downsides as my job as a software developer talking with customers and project managers who dig in their heels.
Has this drummer never heard of a bass player named Geddy Lee from a little band called Rush? Geddy goes direct on all of Rush's live shows.

This discussion reminds me of a number of different scenarios related to technology changing, and attitudes that change later, after people learn the truth for themselves. I just saw Rush on the last tour, Clockwork Angels, and Alex Lifeson is now also going direct to FOH along with Geddy, although it's a more elaborate setup with amp heads through Palmer DI boxes, and AXE-FX II for effects, as well as completely replacing his acoustic guitars, but it is interesting to consider that there are no speaker cabinets used on-stage.

In a different scenario, I distinctly remember reading an old interview with Alex in a guitar magazine, I was reading it around 1989, but the article was from the early 80's. In it Alex was stating that Transistor amps just never sound as good as Tube amps to him, and he could never use them. The irony was that I had just seen them when Alex was touring with Gallien-Krueger Transistor guitar amps, which, of course sounded great, but new 80's Transistor tone, like The Big Money, or Time-Stand-Still type tone. He eventually did go back to Tube Amps. But now? no Cabinets! Young Alex in that interview would've never believed it, just like the young me reading the article then would've never believed I could get this amazing AXE-FX II tone and feel through headphones/nearfields. Every FW update, I get a new rig. But more like a tractor trailer rig, full of amps, cabs, and echoes, did I mention the stereo tape echoes! I'm going to play my guitar now... I'll be back in a couple of weeks...:D

Rick
 
I explained how it all worked and still I couldn't make him understand. He even said "do you think big touring bands run straight to the desk", which is then when I brought up every artist in the Fractal Artist page. Still he was adamant that this was wrong and every engineer will insist on micing it up.

Did you ask if he would mic the vocal monitors to mix in some 'stage sound'?
 
I very rarely run into this anymore. In fact, the last "new" engineer I worked with said "oh! An axe fx! Great! You know, more and more guys are going that route these days. So, what do you want from me as far as monitors go?"

For the most part, we have our own engineer that travels with us, but occasionally we'll use a house guy if it's worked into the price/contract (some clubs pay less, but provide full pea and soundguy).

I have only had 1 guy try to mic my atomic wedge and that was in the studio. He was experimenting off the clock. Just tell them "this is just a monitor. Exactly like your pa monitors. I just need a direct line. A DI box is unneeded, but up to you if you want to use one."
 
"who also used to engineer." Why is it that he "used to"? Did he try to mic the mains and double the output?

He used to work for one of the main sound companies around this area. Unfortunately, from my point of view at least, this was a number of years ago before modelling really became prevalent and so he simply isn't familiar with the concept.
 
I knew I'd get a response to that. :)

The term engineer is overused, to the point where it is becoming meaningless.

Does a doctor need a degree to be a doctor?

Completely agree Steadystate.

I work in Electronics and its the same, everyone is an engineer. Even the term "field service engineer" isnt really acurate.
I put everyone straight I hear using the wrong phrases. It may not be "strictly accurate", but I use the following terms:

Engineer - Degree level, someone who designs/can design relevant products (audio, electronics, heating systems - whatever). May not necessarily have the physical skills to build said design (though normally would have)

Technician - Below degree level. cant/doesnt design - BUT has theoretical knowledge to build/fault find/repair/service/maintain an engineers product. Has additional skills such as soldering, making up wiring harnesses etc as well as theoretical knowledge

Fitter - Below technician level. Limited theoretical knowledge. Changes "boxs" either physical ones, or possible down to boards once the need is been determined (and once trained in the process required for the change), either by an engineer,technician, built in test, or fault LEDs. Has limited ability (if any) to solder/re-wire etc once "plug and play" items have been installed.

User/operator - No technical knowledge of how the items work from an engineering perspective (generally - though some may have some hobbiest type knowledge) - but understands how to "use" the items functions and abilities and can operate them to achieve desired results from the "tools/box's/equipment" in question.

With regards "sound engineers" most of them are users only (though some would qualify for fitters or technicians to some degree under my definitions). Id argue some wouldn't even qualify properly as users .......
 
Hehe.. If he is going to play some MP3/CD music during band breaks, he should bring his hi-fi stuff or ghettoblaster and mic the speakers, to get the music trough the PA :D
 
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