Generally Unsatisfied With Tones - Advice?

[Justincase]

Outside a DAW....bigger speakers, more power....move some air.

To quote the wise @JiveTurkey ...
"Buy an empty 112. Load it with a Celestion F12, find a power amp and move on."

Two in stereo are better tho IMHO

 

[hobbes1]

Imho, one needs some volume (like 85+ dB or more) from the monitoring speaker to start getting good tones. The quieter I play through actual speakers (vs. headphones), the worse the sound for most tones.
Maybe consider lowering the pickup height a bit.
Use different presets for headphones vs nearfields vs guitar cabinet. They don't typically sound good moving between platforms, IME. Good luck.

 

[smj]

Hope you get it sorted. Based on what you’ve said, perhaps get an frfr or even run the fm3 through an amp. Recorded guitar and through a real amp are drastically different sonic experiences.

If you want the real amp experience, frfr or fm3 through a guitar amp are the way to go… granted you configure the fm3 and third party speaker appropriately. IE… disable the cab block through an amp.

Even micing a real amp and monitoring through headphones or studio monitors… not the same thing as amp in the room experience.

Sean Meredith-Jones

 

[Delinquished]

Here's your original Engl preset. I am bouncing it back to you with
some tweaks. Not that I know more. Mostly for comparison's sake.

I messed about by adding a Comp at the end of the chain, as well
as including a Drive, and adjusting the Drive and Overdrive on that
particular Amp model. I also added Cuts in the Cab Block.

If you don't have @2112 's IR it can acquired for free in the Axe-Change.
That's the one I used in this Preset.

Sweet! Thank you!

 

[Delinquished]

I didn't read all this. But did anyone suggest resetting your FM3?

I havent, but im not even sure that'd help, ive gone through settings so many times ive lost count

Thank you!

 

[Delinquished]

Also experiment with the precision drive as a send after the amp

Good idea, will do!

Thanks!

 

[Delinquished]

Headphones vs studio monitors often don't translate well as most headphones are nowhere near flat and studio monitors are effected by their positioning and the room itself. Seems you have a decent amount of room fixes already in place so you should be covered for the studio monitors. Headphones will heavily depend on the model used. I suggest looking up your headphone model in the AutoEQ correction database and applying the graphic EQ settings to the Output 1 graphic EQ to correct their response.

For headphones use the reverb block as room reverb to add a sense of space. Otherwise it can sound too direct. Leave it out when actually recording. Also use the headphone output on the FM3 over the Focusrite, the FM3's headphones amp is a lot better.

My setup is not all that different from yours. I use the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd gen into Genelec M040 monitors. I run the FM3 SPDIF out to the SPDIF In on the Focusrite. Since the 2i2 does not have this your sound will be to some degree effected by the mic preamps on it. That still should not be a big issue.

I don't think you will be any happier with a Quad Cortex. I've owned one and it can't really do anything (except captures) that the FM3 doesn't. If you struggle with the FM3's sound you will have the same issues on the QC.

Listening to your 3 sound comparison to me the 1st clip is fine, 2nd clip sounds odd and the 3rd one I could use just fine in a mix with some low cut applied. I think 1 and 3 would beef up nicely with drums and bass added. They definitely sound better when I turn up my headphones louder.

Ill give the reverb ago, typically when making very high gain sounds, reverb actually adds mud to most things but ill try anything at this point!
I think i might give a QC ago just because im curious anyways, but im sure the difference is relatively minor.
The first and last clip is probably the best 2 tones i have in all honesty, so ill persist with putting them within mixes!

Thanks !

 

[Delinquished]

Oops. You did already...

Also check low cut in cab block. Too much low end will compete with other things in the mix.

its definately a balancing act! the reason as to not much high end within the clips is mainly because i cut alot of it, as my presets are full of flat and weak fizz, and its just horrible to my ears! when recording i tend to leave all post and pre effects or changes on the axe, and just do it post within my DAW! helps me keep track of things

ill try messing some more with cutting within the FM3.
Thanks !

 

[Delinquished]

Imho, one needs some volume (like 85+ dB or more) from the monitoring speaker to start getting good tones. The quieter I play through actual speakers (vs. headphones), the worse the sound for most tones.
Maybe consider lowering the pickup height a bit.
Use different presets for headphones vs nearfields vs guitar cabinet. They don't typically sound good moving between platforms, IME. Good luck.

Good idea, i agree that to get a good tone you kinda have to crank it abit like you would a tube amp. ive spent the last day purely spending some time making some adjustments and feel im slowly getting there which is great!
Thanks for your words of advice!

 

[Delinquished]

Hope you get it sorted. Based on what you’ve said, perhaps get an frfr or even run the fm3 through an amp. Recorded guitar and through a real amp are drastically different sonic experiences.

If you want the real amp experience, frfr or fm3 through a guitar amp are the way to go… granted you configure the fm3 and third party speaker appropriately. IE… disable the cab block through an amp.

Even micing a real amp and monitoring through headphones or studio monitors… not the same thing as amp in the room experience.

Sean Meredith-Jones

I'll 100% keep that in mind, i think having a mess about with my setup method could prove fruitful, so ill give it ago. i really want to get to a place where im happy with this unit, as i love fractal and the results it can produce (what ive heard anyways!)
Thanks for the advice!

 

[Doc Rock]

I'm most certainly NOT a djent player. So I have to admit up front that I'm not sure what exactly it is that you're aiming for.

But the one point I'd make is that for anything chugging away on low strings, low tuning, etc - it will NEVER sound or feel the same coming out of 5" studio monitors as it does coming out of a 4x12 real box or similar.

I have two PowerCab 112s sitting about 2m apart for great stereo spread, and if I try to get that chugging thing happening, I need those suckers cranked up and pushing air. Lots of air.

My studio monitors are Presonus Eris 8" ones PLUS they work with a sub-woofer that goes down to 8Hz (It's an 18" Velodyne with a built-in 3000W power amp that shakes the house if pushed). The monitoring system is EQ'd to be as flat as possible in my listening position. But even with that setup, it sounds piss-weak compared to punching through the two PowerCabs. I can't see how your setup through a pair of 5" studio monitors would ever be able to sound anything like that. You may get the volume level if you push it, but you sure wouldn't get the "feelz"....

 

[Øutsider]

Imho, one needs some volume (like 85+ dB or more) from the monitoring speaker to start getting good tones. The quieter I play through actual speakers (vs. headphones), the worse the sound for most tones.
Maybe consider lowering the pickup height a bit.
Use different presets for headphones vs nearfields vs guitar cabinet. They don't typically sound good moving between platforms, IME. Good luck.

This.

While back I had issues with it sounding weak, muddy and just generally terrible. Finally dawned on me that it just sounded like shit when I'd roll the volume down and play at low volumes to keep from pissing the neighbors off. As soon as I'd crank it, the problem resolved itself.

 

[fractalz]

its definately a balancing act! the reason as to not much high end within the clips is mainly because i cut alot of it, as my presets are full of flat and weak fizz, and its just horrible to my ears! when recording i tend to leave all post and pre effects or changes on the axe, and just do it post within my DAW! helps me keep track of things

ill try messing some more with cutting within the FM3.
Thanks !

What I've discovered is that too much low end will make compressors behave strangely. Well, not strangely, they behave according to spec, but maybe not what you wanted. So, strategic cuts pre DAW are sometimes required.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

This.

While back I had issues with it sounding weak, muddy and just generally terrible. Finally dawned on me that it just sounded like shit when I'd roll the volume down and play at low volumes to keep from pissing the neighbors off. As soon as I'd crank it, the problem resolved itself.

It’s this in action.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Imho, one needs some volume (like 85+ dB or more)

From what I’ve seen looking at the Fletcher-Munson curves the volume needs to be between 90-100 dB. That’s when the curve looks like it flattens out the most.

It’s also good if it’s shaking the guitar because that changes the sound.

 

[laxu]

From what I’ve seen looking at the Fletcher-Munson curves the volume needs to be between 90-100 dB. That’s when the curve looks like it flattens out the most.

It’s also good if it’s shaking the guitar because that changes the sound.

I find that with real tube amps the tone starts to be great at about 90-95 dB @ 1m and up (until it's too loud for the space). Anything below that and you are having to compromise. Doesn't matter if you run it through a great attenuator like a Fryette Power Station or using master volume, volume matters.

Modelers into studio monitors are generally easier for lower volume because you have the speakers right next to you so you need less volume to reach a perceived volume that sounds good. Plus like with the Fryette PS, the behavior of the amp separate from the volume level.

Fractal also has a lot of tools for making up for the lack of some physical phenomena. For example the Gain Enhancer in the Amp block output section is very useful for simulating what happens when playing an amp loud in a room. I'd recommend trying it out if you play with headphones a lot as it can make that situation feel better since headphones do not have the reinforcement loop between guitar speakers and the guitar itself. You don't have to dial a lot of it in.

Similarly for headphones room reverb helps bring in the space that is missing. I use it pretty much every time I play through headphones but for recording you'd want to disable it as in the final mix the more direct sound is easier to fit in.

You can also try mixing two different IRs together. Try for example adding two IRs of the same cab with different mics and panning them. Or pan both to center and reduce the level of one of them, this would be using that second IR to fill in the sound of the "main" IR by adding for example a darker sounding IR at a lower level to beef things up.

 

[sprint]

What I've discovered is that too much low end will make compressors behave strangely. Well, not strangely, they behave according to spec, but maybe not what you wanted. So, strategic cuts pre DAW are sometimes required.

Depends what volume one dials in a preset. I dial in / play quiet (80-85) - cranking volume would neg affect my tone - perceived FM effect being relative to the starting reference.

 

[Will Chen]

I'm most certainly NOT a djent player. So I have to admit up front that I'm not sure what exactly it is that you're aiming for.

But the one point I'd make is that for anything chugging away on low strings, low tuning, etc - it will NEVER sound or feel the same coming out of 5" studio monitors as it does coming out of a 4x12 real box or similar.

I have two PowerCab 112s sitting about 2m apart for great stereo spread, and if I try to get that chugging thing happening, I need those suckers cranked up and pushing air. Lots of air.

My studio monitors are Presonus Eris 8" ones PLUS they work with a sub-woofer that goes down to 8Hz (It's an 18" Velodyne with a built-in 3000W power amp that shakes the house if pushed). The monitoring system is EQ'd to be as flat as possible in my listening position. But even with that setup, it sounds piss-weak compared to punching through the two PowerCabs. I can't see how your setup through a pair of 5" studio monitors would ever be able to sound anything like that. You may get the volume level if you push it, but you sure wouldn't get the "feelz"....

Some folks absolutely want a high performance car because they love the feel of acceleration even if the majority of driving is under fairly mundane conditions. That feel of zipping from 0-60 in 5 sec is what driving is all about and they won't even consider a car that can't do it. Others don't care about that speed at all, they want the utility and care more about MPG and safety ratings vs acceleration and top speed. Same thing with amps/volume/tone. For some, it doesn't sound right unless their pants are flapping and their ears are ringing while others just aren't excited by volume and may even wear earplugs when playing at any significant volumes. There's no single solution here.

 

[la szum]

Some folks absolutely want a high performance car because they love the feel of acceleration even if the majority of driving is under fairly mundane conditions. That feel of zipping from 0-60 in 5 sec is what driving is all about and they won't even consider a car that can't do it. Others don't care about that speed at all, they want the utility and care more about MPG and safety ratings vs acceleration and top speed. Same thing with amps/volume/tone. For some, it doesn't sound right unless their pants are flapping and their ears are ringing while others just aren't excited by volume and may even wear earplugs when playing at any significant volumes. There's no single solution here.

Cool analogy.

 

[Javialtonaga]

Try this one and let us know....