FM9 to Line6 Powercab 212 Plus FRFR sounds bad

[gaaarfild]

I have an FM9 and Powercab 212 Plus. So a couple of facts to help identify the problem. Mostly I don't like the dirty sound

1. My FM9 through the Powercab sounds not good, somehow sound is compressed and feels a tiny bit "cheap".
2. I was trying so many different built-in CABs in FM9, all sound not good
3. I was also trying many amps
4. Powercab is in FRFR mode, no cab simulation is enabled on the Powercab
5. Tried a Helix Pod via this cabinet and it sounded pretty nice
6. I somehow managed to make the sound that is close to what I like on the low volume, but it sounds very bad on loud volume
7. I applied high and low cuts to make it not that dark and harsh on loud. And it sounds even more compressed afterward
8. I use a compressor block but it's not the issue, because when it's bypassed, not much changes.
9. I miss good high frequencies, so I try to adjust the AMP EQ trebles and mids, but it is either muffled or harsh.
10. The guitar is not distinguishable in the mix when the second guitar is playing. When I play alone with bass and drums - it's ok-ish.
11. Clean sounds good but also suffers a bit from being distinguished in the mix. I use it super clean without any crunch

 

[elvis]

First, Greg's advice about setting up your preset with the amp at stage volume is super important. You can't set it up low and then play loud with similar results.

Second, don't add the low-cut. As it is, the powercab cuts off below 70Hz. The frequency response is listed as 70-20kHz. This usually means -3dB at 70Hz and at 20kHz. So it's actually cutting up to 700Hz, where it will be -0.1dB, if it's a single-pole response. I don't know what the low-cut response is, but the cab is already cutting lows in FRFR mode.

 

[elvis]

Interesting info about the Powercab here
https://community.justinguitar.com/t/ngd-line6-powercab-questioning-if-it-is-working-properly/155598

Looks like it's designed to roll off the lows, and their definition of "flat" is not so accurate. In many audio systems, flat is actually +/-3dB, so you could have a "flat" system that is, for example, -3dB at 20Hz, +3dB at 500Hz, -3dB at 2kHz, +3dB at 10kHz, and -3dB at 20kHz. This is not at all flat, but would be called flat 20-20kHz in the spec sheet. Higher-end systems will call flat +/-1dB or less.

It may help to build a filter that counteracts the frequency response of the power cab. I could not find anything published other than the one at the link above, but there may be one out there somewhere.

 

[marsonic]

Interesting info about the Powercab here
https://community.justinguitar.com/t/ngd-line6-powercab-questioning-if-it-is-working-properly/155598

Looks like it's designed to roll off the lows, and their definition of "flat" is not so accurate. In many audio systems, flat is actually +/-3dB, so you could have a "flat" system that is, for example, -3dB at 20Hz, +3dB at 500Hz, -3dB at 2kHz, +3dB at 10kHz, and -3dB at 20kHz. This is not at all flat, but would be called flat 20-20kHz in the spec sheet. Higher-end systems will call flat +/-1dB or less.

It's way worse than that in practice with the vast majority of speakers.

That curve looks like a low cut + old fashioned hi-fi style loudness control. I wonder if they're doing DSP to change it drastically based on volume.

But, yeah....calling something FRFR is basically the same as calling it a speaker at this point. No one seems to agree on what any of those words mean.

 

[gaaarfild]

First, Greg's advice about setting up your preset with the amp at stage volume is super important. You can't set it up low and then play loud with similar results.

Thank you for your response! I actually was setting it up loud too. It's more like a piece of additional information.

Second, don't add the low-cut. As it is, the powercab cuts off below 70Hz. The frequency response is listed as 70-20kHz. This usually means -3dB at 70Hz and at 20kHz. So it's actually cutting up to 700Hz, where it will be -0.1dB, if it's a single-pole response. I don't know what the low-cut response is, but the cab is already cutting lows in FRFR mode.

If I don't add a low cut it sounds unbearably dark. Impossible to listen. There was a Low cut on the cab as well, which I used to make it not so low-frequency sounding. So anyway, without a low cut in any case it is just superdark and not nice at all.

And I feel that most issues are with Mid-high frequencies for me. Not for the Cab, as apparently, it works fine with another modeler.
And maybe one more piece of information, factory presets sound great on a low volume and suffer from the
same problem on a high volume
What are the right steps to do for the live performance?

 

[elvis]

Thank you for your response! I actually was setting it up loud too. It's more like a piece of additional information.


If I don't add a low cut it sounds unbearably dark. Impossible to listen. There was a Low cut on the cab as well, which I used to make it not so low-frequency sounding. So anyway, without a low cut in any case it is just superdark and not nice at all.

And I feel that most issues are with Mid-high frequencies for me. Not for the Cab, as apparently, it works fine with another modeler.
And maybe one more piece of information, factory presets sound great on a low volume and suffer from the
same problem on a high volume
What are the right steps to do for the live performance?

For starters, boost mids. Maybe +3dB (or more) with a 1kHz Bandpass, Q=0.5. This will give about an octave (and a bit more) below and above for width.

 

[gaaarfild]

For starters, boost mids. Maybe +3dB (or more) with a 1kHz Bandpass, Q=0.5. This will give about an octave (and a bit more) below and above for width.

Sorry, I'm a bit new to this. Where should I do it? And does it mean I have to select 1000Hz in parametric EQ? and boost it? Or I misunderstood you?

 

[elvis]

It would be better to really understand the Powercab response and tune it out, but this is quick and dirty. Guitar is mostly midrange, so it's not a terrible experiment.

 

[gaaarfild]

It would be better to really understand the Powercab response and tune it out, but this is quick and dirty. Guitar is mostly midrange, so it's not a terrible experiment.

View attachment 120405

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. Will this go together with a cab block? Or this is the way of emulating the cab-in-the-room thing? Or I'm just mixing contexts here?

 

[unix-guy]

You haven't provided any context on what is in your preset.

You say it sounds compressed. Have you checked the headroom meter in the Amp block? Maybe you need to lower Master Volume because the amp model is compressing to much.

Also, you say it's too "dark" but address that with a Low Cut. To me, "dark" means it's not cutting or bright, and I don't think a Low Cut will resolve that... I'd look increase mids and/or Treble.

 

[gaaarfild]

You haven't provided any context on what is in your preset.

As I added to the details, any factory preset sounds bad in a loud volume

You say it sounds compressed. Have you checked the headroom meter in the Amp block? Maybe you need to lower Master Volume because the amp model is compressing to much.

Thank you for the advice, I will check it.

Also, you say it's too "dark" but address that with a Low Cut. To me, "dark" means it's not cutting or bright, and I don't think a Low Cut will resolve that... I'd look increase mids and/or Treble.

Saying "dark" I mean it's a lot of low frequencies. The opposite of "presence". I guess it's called "deep". Isn't Low Cut trimming the lower frequencies?

 

[chris]

When playing, are the speakers facing your ears or your ankles?

 

[gaaarfild]

When playing, are the speakers facing your ears or your ankles?

Tried both. When facing ears it sounds better. But not great still
UPD: Also lifting it from the ground makes it a bit better. So it is standing on the stand and facing somehow my chest now. Sounds better, but as I said, still not great.

 

[Deadpool_25]

Your problem is almost certainly the Powercab. They do not have a great reputation with Fractal gear. Try searching the Amps and Cabs section of this forum.

Or just ask @JiveTurkey

 

[Greg Ferguson]

This is what I’d do:

1. Temporarily disconnect the FM9 from the Powercab or any other type of speakers, and plug some decent quality headphones into its headphone jack. Disconnect the guitar cord from the FM9 and play a variety of music through the USB from your computer to the modeler (p. 23 in the manual) and listen with the headphones to see if it sounds right. If it does, then the problem is not the FM9, but elsewhere.
2. If it sounds “bad”, make a full backup of the FM9’s presets, cabs, and settings. (p. 103), then reset the FM9 back to the system defaults (“Reset system parameters” on p. 105), then listen with the headphones again. If it still sounds bad try different headphones and if the problem continues contact support@fractalaudio.com.
3. Plug in your guitar, switch to the factory presets and play through several of them at a reasonably loud headphone output and confirm that combination of guitar, modeler, and headphones sound right. If not, the problem is the guitar or the cord. I expect it will sound very good since you said you got a good sound with your old system, but it’s important to step through each component to confirm that they are not the problem.
4. If it sounds good then you can restore the settings if you want using the instructions on p. 103 and compare the sound to before. At this point you should know that the unit itself is capable of reproducing the sound of the guitar correctly and whether a system setting was contributing to the problem.
5. If it still sounds good, plug in the Powercab, play the guitar fairly loud, and see how it sounds. If it doesn’t sound good then the problem is the Powercab or your cabling. Replace the cabling with something that is known good and try again.
6. If it sounds good then the problem is your preset(s). Copy a stock factory preset you like to an empty slot, then begin adjusting it to your taste and see whether a setting you make changes the sound to “bad”.

I somehow managed to make the sound that is close to what I like on the low volume, but it sounds very bad on loud volume

That’s how psycho-acoustics work. If you’re going to play the preset at loud volume then EQ it at loud volume.

I applied high and low cuts to make it not that dark and harsh on loud. And it sounds even more compressed afterward

And that’s the symptom of EQing wrong. You listen at low volume and it sounds like there is too much midrange, so you add bass and treble to compensate, then the sound is boomy and harsh at high volume. It’s how our brains work.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

UPD: Also lifting it from the ground makes it a bit better. So it is standing on the stand and facing somehow my chest now. Sounds better, but as I said, still not great.

That changes the “space” or “mode” of the speaker. When a speaker, or a speaker in a cabinet, is next to a surface like the floor or wall, the lows are reinforced by bouncing from the surface and add 3 dB. Add 3 dB for each additional surface. That’s why we are not supposed to put the P.A. speakers against a wall or in a corner. The same applies to FRFR cabs, or monitors, because it’s physics in action.

We need to roll off some lows to compensate.

 

[gaaarfild]

This is what I’d do:

1. Temporarily disconnect the FM9 from the Powercab or any other type of speakers, and plug some decent quality headphones into its headphone jack. Disconnect the guitar cord from the FM9 and play a variety of music through the USB from your computer to the modeler (p. 23 in the manual) and listen with the headphones to see if it sounds right. If it does, then the problem is not the FM9, but elsewhere.
2. If it sounds “bad”, make a full backup of the FM9’s presets, cabs, and settings. (p. 103), then reset the FM9 back to the system defaults (“Reset system parameters” on p. 105), then listen with the headphones again. If it still sounds bad try different headphones and if the problem continues contact support@fractalaudio.com.
3. Plug in your guitar, switch to the factory presets and play through several of them at a reasonably loud headphone output and confirm that combination of guitar, modeler, and headphones sound right. If not, the problem is the guitar or the cord. I expect it will sound very good since you said you got a good sound with your old system, but it’s important to step through each component to confirm that they are not the problem.
4. If it sounds good then you can restore the settings if you want using the instructions on p. 103 and compare the sound to before. At this point you should know that the unit itself is capable of reproducing the sound of the guitar correctly and whether a system setting was contributing to the problem.
5. If it still sounds good, plug in the Powercab, play the guitar fairly loud, and see how it sounds. If it doesn’t sound good then the problem is the Powercab or your cabling. Replace the cabling with something that is known good and try again.
6. If it sounds good then the problem is your preset(s). Copy a stock factory preset you like to an empty slot, then begin adjusting it to your taste and see whether a setting you make changes the sound to “bad”.

That’s how psycho-acoustics work. If you’re going to play the preset at loud volume then EQ it at loud volume.


And that’s the symptom of EQing wrong. You listen at low volume and it sounds like there is too much midrange, so you add bass and treble to compensate, then the sound is boomy and harsh at high volume. It’s how our brains work.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I actually was listening to the factory presets on a high volume. I understand that I have to EQ it on the high volume. Which I did. But I may not be that good at understanding the frequencies, because I can't manage to make it sound good on high at all. It's rather very exaggerated lows, or it sounds muffled and not distinct. If I start adding some mid-high-range frequencies - it starts to sound harsh. Also kinda narrow and dull. I can't get to that sweet spot.
Of course, I read these Wiki articles too. Nevertheless, it doesn't help me, because there is no exact recipe. I'm pretty sure that the problem is in my skills, not in the gear. Was hoping that people will give some good and very specific advice. Like "You have to boost 1000Hz to 3db and adjust the definition in input EQ of an amp block". Not that detailed of course, but I'd like to collect some more knowledge about it. Maybe it's a bit naive hope

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I actually was listening to the factory presets on a high volume.

Dig into the factory presets and you’ll see there are no magic settings, yet they sound great loud. My experience is that my system does not need a lot of work to sound good.

Was hoping that people will give some good and very specific advice. Like "You have to boost 1000Hz to 3db and adjust the definition in input EQ of an amp block". Not that detailed of course, but I'd like to collect some more knowledge about it. Maybe it's a bit naive hope

Nobody can give you detailed recommendations because they can’t hear your rig right in front of them; Even a sound clip leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Share a preset that is causing you problems, along with a backup of your system settings, and we can clone your modeler’s output and try to duplicate the problem.

 

[Joce]

I've owned 2 PowerCabs 112+ in the past and using them with my Axe-Fx.

IMHO they are not sounding their best on the FRFR mode... so I was using them with Cab off on the Axe and speaker profiles loaded in the cabs (switched per scene via midi from the Axe - worked pretty good in fact!).

But for what it's worth, here is what Line 6 recommends to have the PowerCabs sound their best:

1) turn down volume on the cab completely
2) play your guitar and set the output volume on the FM9 until you see the signal light turn red.
3) then back off the volume until you only see it go in the yellow/red once in a while when you really hit it hard (similar to 'tickling the red' approach when you set your input % on the Axe...)
4) then turn up the volume on the cab to where you need it to be.
5) of course make sure no high or low cuts or EQs are being applied in your cab preset

This I find did make a difference in terms of how dynamic the cab sounded.

Alas I still ended up selling them... ;-)

 

[gaaarfild]

Dig into the factory presets and you’ll see there are no magic settings, yet they sound great loud. My experience is that my system does not need a lot of work to sound good.


Nobody can give you detailed recommendations because they can’t hear your rig right in front of them; Even a sound clip leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

Share a preset that is causing you problems, along with a backup of your system settings, and we can clone your modeler’s output and try to duplicate the problem.

I exported my preset. Hope somebody will have time to check what's wrong there