CLRs and Amp In The Room tone. I think I've figured something out.

Thanks OP, I'll try this tomorrow. Did you start with Fractal's SS captured IR's? I find the Ownhammer T2 cabs are pretty great for the CLR and getting more bass and oomph in your chest. Is there a way to route this so that one output goes to the board (no low end filter) and another goes to the FRFR that's making your pants flap?
 
I've tried it yesterday and it must be working on amps that got less bass response.
I tried it with modified "a clockwork banana" as I like how Mesa sounds on that patch. I simply removed existing filter and placed filter parallel with CAB block and must say it adds some lows but they're barely hear able on their own although its a great idea.
 
Wow. This is a revelation! I tried this on my Plexi patch and it does just what you say. I've only tried it at very low volumes and will probably need to roll back a bit for rehearsal/gig levels but it definitely helps to give body to the tone coming out of my CLR. Not just low notes either, but high register notes also have more girth like with a real amp. Not so "thin" sounding. I notice it also appears to "tighten up" the lower frequencies whilst adding the "bigness" you described. Thanks for sharing!! :)
 
i think what we;re trying to do here is simulate a real world acoustical effect. imagine a 4x12 stood in a room about a foot from a wall. the back of the cabinet will be producing a lot of bass frequencies which will be reflected off the wall and back into the room. a typical frfr speaker or wedge will be much smaller than this and also have a different shape (especially a wedge, which doesn't have a large flat back), so this effect will be much less apparent. adding in some low frequencies...especially if they're very diffused with a short room reverb...will simulate this effect. i would be very wary about using it live though, because once you get up to gig volumes, the amount of energy in the bass range will be much greater and you will get the effect for real anyway.
as i said before, i'd be interested to hear cliff's new ultrares ir's, because they seem to contain more bass information, but i also think an easy way to implement this in the axe would be to add another air parameter that only deals with the bass frequencies. coupled with the room reverb in the cab block (which i think could also be improved somewhat), there might be an easy way to recreate this effect. new mix ir's created using mics placed on the cab and round the back of the cab would also help, i think.
 
Stringtheorist said:
Wow. This is a revelation! I tried this on my Plexi patch and it does just what you say. I've only tried it at very low volumes and will probably need to roll back a bit for rehearsal/gig levels but it definitely helps to give body to the tone coming out of my CLR. Not just low notes either, but high register notes also have more girth like with a real amp. Not so "thin" sounding. I notice it also appears to "tighten up" the lower frequencies whilst adding the "bigness" you described. Thanks for sharing!! :)
Click to expand...

Could you share that patch?? I'd love to hear that. What pickups you're using ? Only one CLR ??
 
thinking about this some more...perhaps a good way to do this would be to get rid of the "air" parameter in the cab block altogether and change the "room" parameter. i think the "room" parameter doesn't sound anything like a "room" at the moment, because it only seems to have a high frequency component. if you turn it up, it sounds like you're in a bathroom and i don't play guitar in the bathroom. changing this, so it includes these very low frequencies would kill two birds with one stone...add the low frequency component and the early reflections at the same time. it would be very interesting to find out what the range of frequencies are thrown out the back of a typical 1x12, 2x12 (open back and closed back) and 4x12 and perhaps this could be selectable in the cab block depending on the type of cab you're using. this would fine tune the bass response of the room parameter. if people think this is worth pursuing, i'll make it a wishlist item
 
simeon said:
thinking about this some more...perhaps a good way to do this would be to get rid of the "air" parameter in the cab block altogether and change the "room" parameter. i think the "room" parameter doesn't sound anything like a "room" at the moment, because it only seems to have a high frequency component. if you turn it up, it sounds like you're in a bathroom and i don't play guitar in the bathroom. changing this, so it includes these very low frequencies would kill two birds with one stone...add the low frequency component and the early reflections at the same time. it would be very interesting to find out what the range of frequencies are thrown out the back of a typical 1x12, 2x12 (open back and closed back) and 4x12 and perhaps this could be selectable in the cab block depending on the type of cab you're using. this would fine tune the bass response of the room parameter. if people think this is worth pursuing, i'll make it a wishlist item
Click to expand...
Didn't Cliff already mention that the highres IRs capture much more of the room than a normal IR could (which only captures the cab itself, as it's length is too short for any reflections to be captured)? I think he even got criticized on that somewhere, as it's basicly not the current practice to capture the room aswell.

... looks like he already envisioned something we were missing all the time, but never noticed. Again.
 
simeon said:
thinking about this some more...perhaps a good way to do this would be to get rid of the "air" parameter in the cab block altogether and change the "room" parameter. i think the "room" parameter doesn't sound anything like a "room" at the moment, because it only seems to have a high frequency component. if you turn it up, it sounds like you're in a bathroom and i don't play guitar in the bathroom. changing this, so it includes these very low frequencies would kill two birds with one stone...add the low frequency component and the early reflections at the same time. it would be very interesting to find out what the range of frequencies are thrown out the back of a typical 1x12, 2x12 (open back and closed back) and 4x12 and perhaps this could be selectable in the cab block depending on the type of cab you're using. this would fine tune the bass response of the room parameter. if people think this is worth pursuing, i'll make it a wishlist item
Click to expand...

I don't know.... I think the current Room is doing a fine job.

Same goes for Air. Maybe adjust Air to be able to set a lower limit? Now the limit is 2000.
It does the job already at 2000 though, I think.
When selecting a bassy amp like a Recto, Air at 2000 and at a high percentage emphasizes the low end.

Tip: to hear only the "Air' part of the signal: select an empty user cab slot, and turn up Air.
 
Seems to me the key is getting some of the multi dimensional thing going on, I most generally play in mono with 1 cab, but I was playing around with stereo setup last week and noticed some of the delays in stereo , especially the 2290 really giving some awesome surround vibe ,(coming from all directions) this somehow (in more of a room reflection setting)applied with addition of lower frequencies or back of cab IR's might be worth looking at, Of course it would only work in stereo! I have been too busy the last week or so to really check into it ,but will as soon as I get the time!
 
Wouldn't it be easier to load one of those Redwirez "back of cab" IRs in the second cab block, and mix to taste ? Of course it would use more CPU, but it may sound more natural
 
Hey "dude"

If you are going to quote me .. quote me ... however do not change the words in my original post (and paste as a quote) to suit you your narrative.



cobbler said:
Sadly what we keep seeing time and time again is your childish and immature attitude whenever the CLR is being talked about. The product didn't work for you. We get it. It's ok too Laz. That's why we have multitudes of products to choose from. You found something that works for you. Awesome!

But how childish and petty do you have to be. How many threads do you have to infect with your hatred? When is it going to stop? Seriously, how low can you go? Maybe next you can start grade school threads and use them to trash talk and slander those you wouldn't have the balls to in person? Oh wait, you already did that on your website.

Note to Cliff and the Mods: Can something be done about this? Many people here have bought the CLR for their monitoring solution. There are going to be numerous threads going forward with users describing how they use them and how they overcame issues RIGHT or WRONG. Do we really have to be subjected to this asshats OBVIOUS agenda in everyone of them? Simply cruise over to his website and read his grade school ranting about Scott and Jay. If it wasn't so sad, it would be comical.

Please do something about this. I find myself staying away from this forum as of late just because of it. I am NOT alone....
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, lets don't jack with Room and Air. I use them both and like them a lot. They add just a little 'something' to the high frequencies.

I'm constantly fighting off low frequencies. They're everywhere.

What I would like to get is more cabinet 'knock'. I know about the Thump parameter but it doesn't sound the same.

I tried a few of the ideas here. Added something, but when I turned it up started to get too much 'woof'.

Just saw the output on the OP's low pass set at 20!!! That ain't set to stun, its set to kill!
 
It seems to me that the issue here is still finding an IR that sounds the way you want it to sound.
The current efforts of Ownhammer and Fractal to provide mix-ready IRs seems to me to be the first step in providing us all with better sounding, more useful, IRs as opposed to the Red Wires paradigm of simply providing us with raw IRs taken at various mic positions with various mics in the hopes that we'll find a mic and mic position that works for us within ALL those IRs.

I.e. In creating the OH and Fractal mix IRs these guys have just said, "OK, let's just find some mic positions and combinations that sound the way we'd want it to sound if we were recording these cabs in a good studio."
And within the current OH and Fractal IR packages this philosophy was even carried through with the IRs of the individual mics.
I.e. Rather than providing us with innumerable IRs of each mic at innumerable positions, most of which are clearly useless, the OH and Fractal guys have decided to just give one or two mic positions of each mic that simply sound good.
In my experience mic'ing my own cabs with a single mic, usually a 57, there really is only 1 maybe 2 positions that actually sound musically useful.

So both these companies IMO are definitely on the right track.
But their current focus has been in providing well mic'd studio techniques.

I believe that if they actually turned their attention towards trying to also provide IRs that attempt to capture something of the amp-in-the-room ambience that they probably could succeed to some degree.
This would probably involve using room mics and back of cab mics placed in strategic positions mixed in with some more typical close mic positions.
I also find it a bit odd, based on pics of the mic'ing process on the Axe WIKI, that on cabswith more than one driver they usually only mic one of those drivers.
It doesn't seem to me to be the best way to try to capture the sound of the entire cab.
Etc.

The "current wisdom" is that the amp-in-the-room feel can NOT be captured within an IR played back through a good FRFR monitor, but I still believe that this remains to be seen because hardly anyone has really tried to do it yet.

I used to think that all those TC-30 close mic IRs would just magically translate the actual sound and response of a cab w/o any colouring into my FRFR speakers.
But that was never even close to being the case.
Now that I have a bit more experience with the whole FRFR paradigm I think I understand a bit better why that is so.

And not to totally dis the RW IR collections....
The solution to this type of thing might well be lurking within those IR libraries because they almost always include some ambient IRs captures of the room and/or the back of the cab.
So some enterprising guys out there might indeed be able to craft their own IR mixes, using Cab Lab or sim, that actually come much closer to the stated goal than any simple single IR that's out there at the moment.
But these guys will have to really know what they're doing and/or get really lucky.

So I'd really like to hear what OH and Fractal could do if they really turned their attention towards trying to more closely capture the amp-in-the-room feel in their IRs with their sophisticated mic'ing techniques, in the sophisticated studios they have at their disposal, with the sophisticated mics and outboard gear they have access to, etc.
I bet they could come a lot closer than the "current wisdom" says they should be able to.
It may never be 'all there' but I bet they could get a lot closer if they actually tried.
 
Has anyone tried just a bass peak instead of a low-pass filter? I'm at work right now and can't experiment, but it seems focusing in on a low-mid range and playing with gain might be interesting.
 
joegold said:
It seems to me that the issue here is still finding an IR that sounds the way you want it to sound.
The current efforts of Ownhammer and Fractal to provide mix-ready IRs seems to me to be the first step in providing us all with better sounding, more useful, IRs as opposed to the Red Wires paradigm of simply providing us with raw IRs taken at various mic positions with various mics in the hopes that we'll find a mic and mic position that works for us within ALL those IRs.

I.e. In creating the OH and Fractal mix IRs these guys have just said, "OK, let's just find some mic positions and combinations that sound the way we'd want it to sound if we were recording these cabs in a good studio."
And within the current OH and Fractal IR packages this philosophy was even carried through with the IRs of the individual mics.
I.e. Rather than providing us with innumerable IRs of each mic at innumerable positions, most of which are clearly useless, the OH and Fractal guys have decided to just give one or two mic positions of each mic that simply sound good.
In my experience mic'ing my own cabs with a single mic, usually a 57, there really is only 1 maybe 2 positions that actually sound musically useful.

So both these companies IMO are definitely on the right track.
But their current focus has been in providing well mic'd studio techniques.

I believe that if they actually turned their attention towards trying to also provide IRs that attempt to capture something of the amp-in-the-room ambience that they probably could succeed to some degree.
This would probably involve using room mics and back of cab mics placed in strategic positions mixed in with some more typical close mic positions.
I also find it a bit odd, based on pics of the mic'ing process on the Axe WIKI, that on cabswith more than one driver they usually only mic one of those drivers.
It doesn't seem to me to be the best way to try to capture the sound of the entire cab.
Etc.

The "current wisdom" is that the amp-in-the-room feel can NOT be captured within an IR played back through a good FRFR monitor, but I still believe that this remains to be seen because hardly anyone has really tried to do it yet.

I used to think that all those TC-30 close mic IRs would just magically translate the actual sound and response of a cab w/o any colouring into my FRFR speakers.
But that was never even close to being the case.
Now that I have a bit more experience with the whole FRFR paradigm I think I understand a bit better why that is so.

And not to totally dis the RW IR collections....
The solution to this type of thing might well be lurking within those IR libraries because they almost always include some ambient IRs captures of the room and/or the back of the cab.
So some enterprising guys out there might indeed be able to craft their own IR mixes, using Cab Lab or sim, that actually come much closer to the stated goal than any simple single IR that's out there at the moment.
But these guys will have to really know what they're doing and/or get really lucky.

So I'd really like to hear what OH and Fractal could do if they really turned their attention towards trying to more closely capture the amp-in-the-room feel in their IRs with their sophisticated mic'ing techniques, in the sophisticated studios they have at their disposal, with the sophisticated mics and outboard gear they have access to, etc.
I bet they could come a lot closer than the "current wisdom" says they should be able to.
It may never be 'all there' but I bet they could get a lot closer if they actually tried.
Click to expand...


I agree with many of these points. I feel that the FAS and OH techniques are much more beneficial to finding a "best" tone within all the choices we have and I believe that it is because of this "mixing" that they've chosen to do. I do know that in my OH pack, there is a "room" IR that I have experimented with a couple of times and will look to mess with more in the near future.

I have tried to make my own IR's, but due to limitations at the time (only a couple of mics, no mixing method and limited knowledge of how to go about it), I wasn't coming up with anything good, but now since I've invested in Cab Lab and a couple of extra mics, I'd like to revisit these efforts and utilize the mixing capability to see what I can come up with by using IRs of many placements, including those back-of-cab and room placements. I will be keeping some of these points in mind throughout my attempts. Hopefully I can come up with something good and if not, atleast I'll be gaining experience in the end, right? :)
 
Hi,

first I'd like to say hello to you all. I've been visiting here for years, but never registered, until now.

I've had my share of tube amps, both boutique and non-boutique. I've also tried to play FRFR since the early POD days, but was never quite satisfied, until now. For the last year, I have been playing with just Axe II and active CLR. I always thought that IR's were the weak link of the Axe FX, as I always wanted to get the "amp in the room" sound (remember, I've played with real amps for 25 years, and I'm just used to the sound, whether I'm playing live, at rehearsal or at home). The addition of the new "mix" IR's in the Axe FX was a turning point to me. After that I could sell my Matrix and leave my Bogner OS 2x12" open back at home and play through CLR (or P.A.).

However, I am not completely satisfied with my "speaker" sound. I mainly use the Factory 95 (2x12 Supremo mix) IR, of which I don't even know what cab it is in real life. It just reminds me of my Bogner with Celestion G12-65's. It seems to work well with clean and distorted sounds. But it is not 100% there.

What I've been thinking is this: in order to make a decent approximation of a guitar speaker is to catch multiple IR's with the same (neutral) mic, at the same distance from the center to the cone, and mix them together (without normalizing them to be of the same volume). The Red Wires IR's could be a starting point, but I'm not sure if they've been compensated for the volume. Furthermore, I don't think 4 positions are enough to really capture the inconstancies of a guitar speaker's resonance. My idea is that if a mix IR of this kind was made, the FRFR speaker would sound just like the speaker. Then of course, you could add the back of the cab etc. in the mix. What do you think?
 
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