Celestion F12-X200

[neale dunham]

.......better still, send me a preset that you think won't distort on my system and I will record it and send it back to you.

 

[Rex]

If you still think it's the preset settings. Try turning the gain down to say 1 or even lower if necessary on my preset as you have suggested and I would guess the sound would clean up quite a bit or just back off the gain until the buzzing sound disappears? Then turn up your studio monitors as loud as you wish and see if the distortion returns.

I've already done that. Volume doesn't change the distortion.

Even if the gain reduction you are suggesting was a "fix". It still doesn't address the problem of what to then do if I need a high gain sound...

This one is easy. If you want a high-gain sound, dial that in.

or an edge of break up tone which I use regularly?

My first choice for edge-of-breakup wouldn't be a Mesa. They tend to transition into distortion abruptly, and that's not good for dancing on the edge.

 

[neale dunham]

Every Single Amplifier Preset Does it. Factory ones included. No amount of tweaking will eliminate it. I tried everything.

Please send me a Preset that you think might work and I will record it and send you the results.

 

[RichD]

It’s the cab.

 

[neale dunham]

It may well be the cab Rich, but I would just like to rule a few more things out first.

Thanks mate.

 

[neale dunham]

Rex, Do the Factory presets sound good on your system?

Do they behave in the same way my preset does?

 

[Rex]

.......better still, send me a preset that you think won't distort on my system and I will record it and send it back to you.

Take the preset you posted, and drop Input Drive to 1.6. Make up the volume loss with the Amp block's Level parameter. That's what I did to eliminate the fizz.

 

[Rex]

Rex, Do the Factory presets sound good on your system?

Yes.

Do they behave in the same way my preset does?

No.

 

[japri]

Hi Japri,

Thats interesting..... Yes the amp block would be set to SS+cab, as I use this preset live with a traditional speaker cabinet. I just added a cab block to it purely to use the F12.

Yes, there are a number of things I need to try, some of which you have outlined here. I did wonder if it might be that a solid state amp works better with this type of speaker?

I spoke with Celestion on this, and they replied saying they use valve amps with their axe fx 2 all the time without issue. So I ran my Axe 3 through the FX return of my Marshall MG100hdfx which is the only SS amp I own, and the buzzy sound was still there. I presumed at that stage that the issue did not lie with the power amp.

If you get a chance, could you try the preset with a valve amp, using a guitar with quite powerful humbuckers and see if it still sounds ok.

Many Thanks.

Hi Neal,

I have check using my ibanez with illuminator pickup, i can hear breakup dist. i think the preset has overdriven by input signale. the dist it's come from the axefx, not the speaker. i think it has to do with the input signal. because on my strat it's crystal clear.

Hope it helps..

 

[japri]

Take the preset you posted, and drop Input Drive to 1.6. Make up the volume loss with the Amp block's Level parameter. That's what I did to eliminate the fizz.

I can confirm with this. i tried it just now with humbucker pickup. it's clean up. With axe fx volume full and amp volume to max.

 

[neale dunham]

Ok thanks guys.

I will check it out and report back....

 

[neale dunham]

I have run some tests guys.

First off, I Reduced the Gain as Rex suggested to 1.6 and switched my PRS ce24 on single coil mode. Yep, The Buzz completely disappeared!!

Unfortunately tho, as I predicted, as soon as I pumped up the master volume on the Power amp (not even concert levels) the fizz returned.

I have captured another couple of clips, as I was asked to prove that the fizz could be produced at high volume with light picking and Hard picking at Low volume and I didn't have any evidence to support my claims.

This first one is played using only my thumb very gently with the volume up high on the Axe fx and Poweramp.

I have included pictures of my settings for verification purposes.

Please ignore the top Powerstation setting as it is not is the Signal chain and not switched on.

Here is the link to the Soundclip.

Please remember, this happens on EVERY preset in my Axe fx its not only inherent in this preset.

 

[neale dunham]

Next up,

Low volume, hard picking using a 0.75mm Herco Pick.

On this clip I am intentionally picking harder than I ever would in normal circumstances.

For this test, I even pushed up the Gain on the Axe fx to 3.00 just to prove that reducing the gain, has no effect on the buzzing or fizz whatsoever. Its merely circumventing the underlying issue.

 

[japri]

I have run some tests guys.

First off, I Reduced the Gain as Rex suggested to 1.6 and switched my PRS ce24 on single coil mode. Yep, The Buzz completely disappeared!!

Unfortunately tho, as I predicted, as soon as I pumped up the master volume on the Power amp (not even concert levels) the fizz returned.

I have captured another couple of clips, as I was asked to prove that the fizz could be produced at high volume with light picking and Hard picking at Low volume and I didn't have any evidence to support my claims.

This first one is played using only my thumb very gently with the volume up high on the Axe fx and Poweramp.

I have included pictures of my settings for verification purposes.

Please ignore the top Powerstation setting as it is not is the Signal chain and not switched on.

Here is the link to the Soundclip.

Please remember, this happens on EVERY preset in my Axe fx its not only inherent in this preset.






View attachment 71219

I tried on full volume both on axe fx and my amp, no buzzing.

This is a puzzle... could be the freyete amp over powered the speaker? how many speakers you used? btw don't know where the culprit bro.

Maybe can try to use the eminence 12 beta cx and asd 1001. it's a proven good speaker. With a good passive cross over. or a DSP is preffered. like dbx drive rack PA2. with seperate amplifier for tweeter and woofer.

 

[neale dunham]

The more you guys test and help me on this....the closer im getting.

Thankyou.

This certainly is a puzzle.

If you are experiencing no buzzing. I think the answer lies between Either reducing the gain (by using Lower output pickups). This doesn't "cure" the issue it just circumvents it. Perhaps as this is a 200w Speaker, and I only have a 50w amp Either or Both the Axe fx and Poweramp introduce natural Compression and a little distortion when the volume is increased over particular level. It is this that a traditional speaker interprets in a completely different way to a FRFR speaker. I Wonder if I had a 100w Valve amp whether the buzzing sound would start at a much later point. Considering you tested on a 300w SS amp which probably didn't introduce much distortion to the signal path. Again I could be wrong.

I need to test this speaker using a high powered SS amp and a 100w amp and see what happens, then because I am now thinking along the lines that its the axe and power amp that could be producing the distortion and the speaker is replicating it in a non-linear buzzy sound???

 

[FractalAudio]

The more you guys test and help me on this....the closer im getting.

Thankyou.

This certainly is a puzzle.

If you are experiencing no buzzing. I think the answer lies between Either reducing the gain (by using Lower output pickups). This doesn't "cure" the issue it just circumvents it. Perhaps as this is a 200w Speaker, and I only have a 50w amp Either or Both the Axe fx and Poweramp introduce natural Compression and a little distortion when the volume is increased over particular level. It is this that a traditional speaker interprets in a completely different way to a FRFR speaker. I Wonder if I had a 100w Valve amp whether the buzzing sound would start at a much later point. Considering you tested on a 300w SS amp which probably didn't introduce much distortion to the signal path. Again I could be wrong.

I need to test this speaker using a high powered SS amp and a 100w amp and see what happens, then because I am now thinking along the lines that its the axe and power amp that could be producing the distortion and the speaker is replicating it in a non-linear buzzy sound???

That speaker is simply the wrong choice with a tube power amp like that. The amp is only 50W. It's going to generate significant amounts of distortion at even moderate volumes. That distortion would usually get filtered with a traditional guitar speaker. But with the X200 all those nasty highs are going to go right to the tweeter. You demonstrated this to yourself when you lowered the volume.

Furthermore the impedance curve presented to the amp is going to be all kinds of funky. Tube power amps for guitar are designed around the typical impedance curve presented by a traditional guitar speaker.

You want a clean, fairly high-power solid-state power amp with that. Either something like an 800W Matrix or one of those Class-D amps (600W or so).

 

[neale dunham]

Glad you stepped in and cleared that up, for I was going round in circles.

Thankyou.

I theorised this in my previous post, and had it going round in the back of my mind, but didn't have the technical know-how to prove it.

Especially when the guys testing my presets through their rigs on this forum said they couldn't hear an issue??
When I asked what equipment they used to test it with, mostly they said they were using SS amps.

This definitely got me thinking it could be the size of the speaker rating and relatively low power of the Powerstation comparatively.
As unfortunately, I don't own a SS amp, I couldn't actually test my theory. Otherwise this could have all been over a lot sooner.

One last question, and its only because Celestion, after speaking with them, claim they have tested this particular speaker with Valve amps with no issue??

Would a 100 watt amp or something like a VHT 2/90/2 be more suitable for this Speaker, or is it a dead loss at this point, and Celestion have perhaps pulled the wool over my eyes a little bit by stating that it works perfectly fine with a valve amp?

 

[deathbyguitar]

Glad you stepped in and cleared that up, for I was going round in circles.

Thankyou.

I theorised this in my previous post, and had it going round in the back of my mind, but didn't have the technical know-how to prove it.

Especially when the guys testing my presets through their rigs on this forum said they couldn't hear an issue??
When I asked what equipment they used to test it with, mostly they said they were using SS amps.

This definitely got me thinking it could be the size of the speaker rating and relatively low power of the Powerstation comparatively.
As unfortunately, I don't own a SS amp, I couldn't actually test my theory. Otherwise this could have all been over a lot sooner.

One last question, and its only because Celestion, after speaking with them, claim they have tested this particular speaker with Valve amps with no issue??

Would a 100 watt amp or something like a VHT 2/90/2 be more suitable for this Speaker, or is it a dead loss at this point, and Celestion have perhaps pulled the wool over my eyes a little bit by stating that it works perfectly fine with a valve amp?

I doubt its loss. You just need something with LOTS of clean headroom. 50 solid state watts isn't gonna cut it. Maybe check out the Duncan Power Stage or a Matrix. A tube power amp would probably also work well.

 

[neale dunham]

Deathbyguitar,

I am using a 50watt Valve Amp. A Fryette Powerstation 2. I Was Wondering if I might get more joy using 100w Like a Mesa 2:90 or Marshall EL34 100 for example?

 

[Rex]

@neale dunham :

By the way, it was never about evidence. Bad choice of words on my part. It was about helping you get to the bottom of your issue. You were having problems with the behavior of your power amp, and you posted a preset that exhibited the same behavior that your audio clip showed. The evident culprit was the preset itself. We just needed more to go on is all.