Celestion F12-X200

Thanks Rex.

Really appreciate your support. helping to try and solve this issue. I really value the members on this great forum and highly regard anyone that takes the time to help me. As I would do the same for others.

Yes I realise it was a difficult one to diagnose but I'm pretty certain now that the valve amp is the weak link here.

Celestion are still running tests for me as we speak and have asked for the identical preset I sent you to run through their Axe fx3 .

Im not sure if that's the right thing to do.

Now we have a handle on what seems to be the issue, do you know how I can illustrate this to Celestion in the best possible light to avoid an discrepancy or a repeat of what we went through?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.??
 
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neale dunham said:
Celestion are still running tests for me as we speak and have asked for the identical preset I sent you to run through their Axe fx3 .

Im not sure if that's the right thing to do.

Now we have a handle on what seems to be the issue, do you know how I can illustrate this to Celestion in the best possible light to avoid an discrepancy or a repeat of what we went through?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.??
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Be explicit about the issue, and make it easy for them to reproduce. If you want to demonstrate a clean signal that distorts when you turn it up, make sure to send them a clean preset that doesn’t exhibit the problem that you’re attributing to a different device.

Also, regarding the clips you provided us, were they actually captured off of a mic in the room, or were they just a line-Level signal to your DAW? Your issue is distorted audio, and if the power amp is the source of that distortion, you’ll never be able to demonstrate it without putting a mic on the speaker.
 
So we could basically sum this up as: Get a high power SS PA, or use a guitar speaker. Don't get another tube power amp designed for guitar expecting different results.
 
Hi Rex,

Thanks for the advice.

Hopefully these threads can help someone in my position further down the line...... not to have to go through all the anguish I have, trying to sort this out.

After some extensive testing today using another Modelling unit (not axe fx) and my F12 Speaker. I have confirmed, that of course, you guys were correct in your analysis that the Poweramp and the F12-X200 are really not compatible.

First off, I ran the Axe fx directly into a Line 6 Speaker Powercab to check the Axe fx presets were performing ok.

There were No adverse effects as you would expect. All sounded good with no buzz or fizz. at very high volume. I tested this in a warehouse by the way!!

We then ran the Helix straight to my Powerstation then into the F12. It produced exactly the same frequency displacement, buzz and fizz I had been experiencing all along. (For want of better terminology and descriptive text).

That Rules out the Axe fx and the Helix base units 100%.

That was enough for me to prove that the information you gave me here on the Forum was 100% correct.

I have, as already mentioned, I have tested the F12 with two other 50w Poweramps. A Mesa 50/50 and a Marshall El34 50/50.

Both Power amps exhibited the same Amp/Speaker mismatch or distortion as I turned up the Master volume.

After using three power amps to experiment this phenomenon, I now feel confident to say that virtually ALL power amps of a similar output rating would behave in exactly the same way.

I have not tried a 100w Poweramp yet.......

This is the only piece of the puzzle I am missing.

Celestion have been adamant when I pressed them on this, that this speaker works perfectly with the valve power amps they use to test their speakers with at the factory.

They have said:
We use an EVH 5150III for most of our testing, but we’ve got all the usual suspects as well, JCM 800, Dual Rectifier, there’s a Fender head of some description as well.
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These are all 100w Amps I presume?

Other guys I have spoken to though, assure me they get no ill-effects from using a Powerstation to run this speaker??

......Something doesn't add up.

If it wasn't for the fact that I actually have two Powerstations, I could believe I may have a duff unit. However, both of my units work ok with traditional speakers and sound identical. Therefore, I can be safe in the knowledge that my P.A's are fine.

So, where does the truth really lie???

I have asked Celestion to report back to me once they have tested the same preset I gave to you guys to test and to test it using a 50w Poweramp only.

If they tell me all is fine, I will be asking for a refund immediately.

For the guys that tell me that this speaker works fine using a Fryette Powerstation, all I can imagine, is that either they haven't heard the full potential of their gear or, are doing something otherworldly in order to circumvent this issue. If you are not experiencing a strange buzzing noise from the speaker (like you dont have a IR in your signal chain). You are probably not turning up the Powerstation enough for it to distort and produce the fizz from the F12 or your guitar pickups are very low output or your presets are very quiet.
My Powerstation starts to make the F12 fizz at around a third of the way up with the axe set at halfway at +4 db in global settings. and the speaker sounds progressively worse as the volume increases from anywhere. Axe fx front panel or Poweramp. The Axe fx only contributes to the distortion as a direct volume injection to the "low powered" valve amp it doesn't send any "corrupt" frequencies so to speak.

As to whether the cabinet design is at fault.... Well, no doubt a better made cabinet would improve the sound, but the jury is out as to whether it would eliminate all of the harsh buzz and fizz I get when pushing my Powerstation amp hard through the F12.

The only time I have heard this speaker sound as it should, is with a Solid State Poweramp with enough juice to drive the F12.

Time will tell if a 100w amp will change the whole nature of this speaker......

My next test is to get my hands on one and test it.

........As soon as I do that, I will report back and let you know my findings......
 
guitarnerdswe said:
So we could basically sum this up as: Get a high power SS PA, or use a guitar speaker. Don't get another tube power amp designed for guitar expecting different results.
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Not unless, as Celestion have, advertised, that this Speaker is capable of being run by a tube amp, to be used by guitarists, that would like to use Ir's in their signal path instead of being "stuck" with whatever speaker they might have.

Which is mighty useful to me. Especially as SS amps just don't cut it in my opinion.
 
neale dunham said:
Not unless, as Celestion have, advertised, that this Speaker is capable of being run by a tube amp, to be used by guitarists, that would like to use Ir's in their signal path instead of being "stuck" with whatever speaker they might have.

Which is mighty useful to me. Especially as SS amps just don't cut it in my opinion.
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There is nothing about using it with a tube amp on the product page. Anyway, as long as you use guitar PAs with it, you will get that fizz. Cliff has stated why.
 
I am in discussions with Celestion as we speak about this.
If you care to read my earlier post, I have posted the communication that Celestion have sent to me directly regarding this matter.
Advocating the use of Valve power amps.
Verbatim.
As Ive already said it’s too early at this stage for me to ascertain whether a larger valve amp will suffice.
If it does, then your claim that only ss amps will suffice is redundant.
If the contrary prevails, then the gauntlet falls squarely at the feet of celestion, who have assured me otherwise.
 
I have already done this Rich.

The Speaker works as intended using a relatively high powered solid state amp.

I First Tested the F12 using a SS power amp rated at 100w. This created exactly the same issue with the F12 that I have with my Powerstation.

A SS P.A rated at 600w works perfectly, and sounds ok.

It does appear, that any type of power amp (SS or Valve) that does not have enough power for this speaker will struggle.

I don't yet know what the minimum requirement is.

Hopefully Celestion will clarify this for me when I hear back from them.

All the best.
 
When I had my problem, it didn’t go away with the Matrix or Seymour Duncan. I am interested to see if it does for you. I missed where you tried the 600w SS. What was it?
 
Ok that's interesting Rich,

I used the Axe fx through the built in amp on my brothers Kemper.

When you tried the Seymour Duncan, did you mean the Powerstage or something different?

I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility that my cabinet could also be contributing to the anomalies. In a sense, Its not exactly a what I would call a world class cabinet, but It is made to the exact specs given on the Celestion website.?

Speaking at length with the very helpful guys from Zilla Cabs, they said it was unlikely that the cab is the main source of the issue.

When faced with a problem such as this. All I can do is take onboard the words of far more experienced people, that know a hell of a lot more than I do on this subject, and base an informed decision on what best to do next to solve.

All I know for sure at this point is that:

1. Its not the Axe fx 3.
2. There is nothing wrong with my speaker.
3. Its not my guitar.

That leaves 2 components,

In my case so far, I have had success using a reasonably high powered SS amp. However, I have only had limited testing time.
Further down the line, if it turns out that an SS I choose still produces the buzzy distortion through the speaker, but at nominal levels, I will look into upgrading the cabinet as a means to completely remove it if it seems a likely avenue to explore.

Until that point, I am looking to borrow/purchase a Matrix amp or similar, and see if I can get on with it.

Solid state amps for me provide some excellent clean sounds, and are also great at high gain/metal. Where they fall down in my opinion, is the middle ground, edge of break up and crunch tones. This is where most of my work is done. I don't know why I can't seem to get a decent sound from my Axe fx using a ss poweramp for this particular area.

I used a friends Helix yesterday through his Line 6 powercab and as soon as he dialled in a jcm800 model the unmistakable solid state sound appeared. Thin, Weak, without body. Almost anaemic compared with a valve amp in this arena.

The Kemper with built in amp does this, and so does the axe fx when powered by a ss amp.

I know there will be guys telling me that if I spend the next 10 years or so tweaking I could get very close. Or. I could just use a Valve amp and get there instantly.

At the end of the day, I am primarily a guitar player, and that's what I want to spend my time doing, ultimately.
 
I have a Powerstage 200 and a Matrix 1000. I agree with on the SS v tube differences. I am never going to use the SS option.
 
The power stage could be a little light in application perhaps with this type of speaker?

ive never tried one, so I couldn’t be sure on that mate.

I’m surprised the Matrix didn’t eliminate the issue??

Even Fractal advised that I try a high powered SS amp and recommended a matrix Gt800 or similar.

Maybe the issue you had was slightly different to mine?

ive still to hear from anybody that has not had a bad experience using the F12 with a valve amp?
 
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I know a few who love it which is why I went this route. I have put the effort in only because of lockdown here. Thing is, Celestion are experts in their field so hopefully they will get to the bottom of it for you. Have you mailed Steve Fryette? He could be the best person to explain where the distortion from his amp goes.
 
Funnily enough I did ping a mail to Dave at Fryette…...

I asked him straight up if there was any reason why the Powerstation might not work well with this particular speaker?

I heard absolutely nothing back??

I then shot him a mail the very next day to ask about replacement valves for the Powerstation as mine is equipped with Ruby valves which seem a little elusive to find in the U.K.

Strangely enough he replied within a few minutes!

I then reminded him about the Fx12 X200 mail I had sent the day before...… Everything went quiet again.??

Draw your own conclusions....
 
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I got a reply from Fryette with regards to the Powerstation.

I asked if there was a Valve amplifier that could handle a 200w Frfr speaker.

They said that the Fryette PS-100 could do the job.

I might take a look, and try my speaker with one of those, and see how it responds?

It could be the answer to my prayers.

If that doesn't work, I will try some other 100 watt heads just to satisfy the possibility that 100w is still not enough power...…….

If 100w valve power is not enough for this speaker, then I will have to make a serious decision on whether I can accommodate a SS amp into the set up.

I am not getting any younger, and the appeal of neodymium and pocket size amps are starting to outweigh 4x12 cabinets and Mesa/boogie Heads!
:)
 
Very interesting thread.

I have a NL12 from Matrix and a Xitone wedge (With Beta CX) on which I would like to try the F12X200.
I haves PS170 SD on the way to power that (Using FM3).

I have a FR10 Matrix, I was happy with it with my AX8, but not with the FM3 compared to what I hear on monitors. I don't want to go through many presets and tweak.

Basically what I hear from my FM3 on in my headphones is perfect (Factory preset are good, AB pack I bought is just outstanding etc..)
So I just want to reproduce sound and feel on a cab+SS power amp or FRFR. I was looking at ASC10 Friedman, but as I have Xitone and NL12 I have ordered the F12X200 to try.

So based on above testing does it mean the SD PS170 will not be power enough for this speaker?

I am not a pro and play gig occasionally with the band but mostly at home/reahearsal room
Playing mainly blues/rock/hard rock
 
Joker,

I cannot say for sure whether the SD will have enough power, as I have never owned one to be able to try it.

However, I have spoken to a few people that have them and matched it to the F12-x200 with varying results.

Some are happy, Some are not.

I would imagine that the results could be similar to mine in so much as the Powerstage has a conservative 170 watts. Therefore im would presume ok for indoor use. Not so cool for outdoor use.

As a suggestion, Why not see if you can put the brakes on your PS170 order (unless you really want it. of course) purchase one on Ebay etc and try it?

If it doesn't work out, you could re-sell and certainly reclaim your money. So kind of a free trial.

Just an idea?
 
I managed to get my hands on a 100w Tube amp today.

The results are as follows:

The issue still persists.

Whilst the "headroom" is greater, it remains to be seen as to whether it will actually be enough to play live concerts with.

The next step is to get it into rehearsals and see how it performs.

I am swaying more and more towards the standpoint that if you want to run this speaker, you are going to need a hell of a lot of power to prevent the speaker reproducing any type of distortion into the final sound.

Im not even sure a 1000w ss amp would cut it at high volume.

My next test is to try a high powered ss amp and see if I can make it sound any good. If not, I will be returning it to Celestion.
 
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