Atomic Active Cab vs. Matrix Q12a

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That's right. If the Matrix is designed to over or under emphasize certain guitar-specific frequencies, then using it would take up some learning curve slack for a new user.

Using a "biased" FRFR solution with the Axe causes a host of other problems though:

~You will never hear what the Axe is actually putting out. All of your patches will be tailored to your biased speaker. Go direct in a decent quality studio and your patches aren't going to sound the way you expect. Send a direct signal to FOH and your patches, which are already compensating for your biased speaker, are going to have to be readjusted in even weirder ways to compensate for the inevitable bias of the house system.
~Having a weird guitar-specific EQ bias built into your FRFR solution is going to cause some of the same problems that guitar speaker cabinets cause; the rig will sound great in some rooms and awful in others. Sort of defeats a huge part of going FRFR in the first place.
~Many users like to match their favorite "real" amps in the Axe through use of varying amp models and different IRs. Using the CLR gives the cleanest artistic "canvas" possible for re-creating the nuances of your real amps and guitar speakers. An overly biased FRFR solution will make attaining highly detailed versions of certain "real" amp/cabinet combinations very difficult.

Some thoughts:
Many of us that use FRFR speakers want our rigs to only exist in the Axe. That, for me, is the whole reason I got into modeling in the first place. I don't want my sound reproduction solution doing ANY of the coloring. That means I have to learn the Axe well enough to be able to dial in what I want to hear. The Axe is not a plug and play toy.

If your Axe patch or patches sound bottom heavy and/or "boomy" through the CLR, then you have dialed in bottom heavy and/or "boomy" settings in the Axe. You can buy FRFR solutions that sound different than the CLR, but you cannot buy any FRFR solution that is more accurate and transparent at giving you exactly what the Axe is sending; i.e. you are hearing the full capability of the Axe reflected through your settings and choice of amp model and IR.

If your Axe patch or patches sound bottom heavy and/or "boomy" through the CLR but they sound "not-boomy" or bass heavy through your other FRFR solution, then your other FRFR solution is not accurate or transparent. That's just the way of things. There are insurmountable physics issues involved that transcend your and my emotions and opinions. <---This is a tough one for lots of guitar oriented folks. As soon as FRFR thinking is engaged, guitar speaker thinking must be dis-engaged. It is very difficult for guitarists to shake the thinking that says, "my speaker exists as part of the tone shaping process".

With the CLR, your choice of speaker IR is arguably the most important decision in the creation of your patches. Ignore the names of the IRs and experiment. I originally used only the near field IRs that come with the Axe. Jay convinced me to relearn the Axe using only far field IRs. That made all the difference in the world for me.

If I needed biased speakers to "color", "warm", or in any other way shape what is coming out of the Axe, then I wouldn't want to use the Axe. That was the way things were back when the first modelers came out. Those days are long gone. But the price tag for full investment in the "it's-all-in-the-Axe" modeling paradigm is surrender of guitar-speaker-mindset.

The CLR finally gives the live Axe user a truly transparent live sound reproduction system to create with. What you dial into the Axe is what will come out. The CLR will do nothing for you. It will not add. It will not take away. All the tone work has to be done in the Axe.

Let me preface what I am about to say that I agree with the logic of your post but you are clearly a CLR fan and any CLR fan who does not own or sow t a lot of time with the matrix will be seen as biased a d their post will be seen as being one sided.

For the record I am actually shocked no one has said hey post the patch and let all us CLR guys try it to see if it booms for us. Many have suggested the problem is the patch. LVC has not agreed with that idea has not offered the patch and no one has asked for it. I will say this and it is no attack on him it does not appear he was searching for flat based on various comments he has made such as not going direct and why should he has to tweak out stuff to make it sound more the way a guitar should. The axe produces way more freq above and below where the guitar's voice is. A guitar cab just does not produce those freq. One thing Scott says that I do agree with is use the tool box of you need. Hi/lo cut use eq use the voicings in the amp add a mic(s) what ever it takes to get the tone you want. The pros don't hit the studio throw some pedals one a 57 on an amp record and that is what we hear on CD.
 
I am no shill. It is common behavior when losing a debate and you do not have fact on your side to attack the other person's character..

the point Scott is that you decided to turn it into a debate -- all I did was post an opinion piece. You are the one that decided to attack and try and discredit me. You are the one who does not believe anybody can have a counter opinion.

I published my opinion piece. You have another.

all you have to say he is entitled to his opinion and I to mine.


I am not accusing you of being a shill ... all I am saying is that behavior such as is being displayed in this thread is "coincident" of behavior typical of shills I have seen posted on forums over the years.

I never said you were wrong with respect to your opinions regarding the Atomic CLR.
I never mocked "your opinion" of the Atomic CLR
I never mocked or goofed on your little charts

Yet you insist on pushing your opinion down my throat and everybody else's.

It is not going to work with me.

You need to respect other people's opinions whether you agree or disagree with them.
 
Can you define "boomy" for me?

I take it to mean the bottom end is more pronounced. If you can scientifically (and I leave that up to the experts in the field) prove that any particular speaker is flat then it's flat. If you "perceive" a speaker as "boomy" when scientific fact states otherwise then that is your opinion and your opinion can obviously be influenced by your patches, environment, and even your own physical attributes.

So Scott saying a speaker isn't "boomy" based on the science and confirmed by his experience is a no brainer.

It seems in my humble opinion that LVC is making his statements based solely on his opinion and that is fine. Comments like "boom box" are far from scientific though and IMO are made only to stoke the fire. A simple comment like "while the CLR is proven to be flat I personally found them to be boomy" would be an opinion. If you are stating the CLR "IS" boomy that comes across as fact and that just isn't the case.

My opinion is calling someone a shill and tossing out images saying so is uncalled for and speaks volumes to me on a persons intentions.
 
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Can you define "boomy"?


I'll try my best

This is what I did to demonstrate what I meant by "boomy" to Jay Mitchell when I had him on the phone. I played the opening riff to "Pretty woman"

The bass coming out of the box was overwhelming (to me).

We spent the next 45 minutes trying to dial it out the Axe.

Obviously I was never satisfied with how things ended up.

When I got the Q12 & GT1000FX, I played

the same riff
at the same volume
with the same guitar
with the Q12 in the same position as the Atomic
same patch
same settings

it sounded even straight across. Nothing jumped out -- especially the bass. Even Steven.

I know this is a very unscientific approach to answering your question, but it is the best I can do.

Hope it helps.
 
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I'll try my best

This is what I did to demonstrate what I meant by "boomy" to Jay Mitchell when I had him on the phone. I played the opening riff to "Pretty woman"

The bass coming out of the box was overwhelming (to me).

We spent the next 45 minutes trying to dial it out the Axe.

Obviously I was never satisfied with how things ended up.

When I got the Q12 & GT1000FX, I played

the same riff
at the same volume
with the same guitar
with the Q12 in the same position as the Atomic
same patch
same settings

it sounded even straight across. Nothing jumped out -- especially the bass. Even Steven.

I know this is a very unscientific approach to answering your question, but it is the best I can do.

Hope it helps.

Some questions:

1) Was the CLR aimed at your head or no? Did you try it up on its side if you prefer to run that way?
2) Do you run the Matrix aimed at your head or no? Do you run it on its side? Where do you aim the speaker (ie is it hitting you in the back of the knees/your back/elevated at ear level?)

I would suppose given your description as quoted that you'd find (or the soundguy would find) your sound is boomy at the board if you run direct to FOH. I would guess you are far better off running a mic to your Matrix; but that removes the entire FRFR advantage and purpose. Laz, would you agree or not with that guess?
 
semantics.

the main problem here is that the term "boomy" is not quantifiable. you can't measure "boomy" because it is an opinion of an individual. same with the words "loud" "tinny" "even" etc.

now one could argue that with the things you can measure (frequency charts, spectrum analysis etc.), you could say that the CLR "is not boomy" because there is no low end spike in the chart. that's statement is based on fact. in this instance "boomy" is defined as "an exorbitant amount of low end that doesn't sound "balanced" with the rest of the frequencies."

but even with that fact (there is no bass spike), comparatively speaking it may sound "boomy" to someone relative to other sounds he/she has heard.

the semantics here are that the speaker "sounds" boomy vs the speaks "is" boomy.

with regards to measurements and quantifiable analysis, the speaker "is not boomy." however it could still "sound" boomy to someone, most likely compared to something else.

so the statement "the CLR is boomy" can be both correct and wrong at the same time. with a definitive word like "is" I would hope there is some sort of scientific approach or measurements being made to state such a fact, versus a feeling or opinion.


that's why in some other thread titled "CLR boomy?" or something like that, i made a sarcastic comment like "omg someone said something about something" in reference to FractalAudio saying the CLR is boomy. i knew it was instantly going to become the meme associated with the CLR and probably become the "permanent opinion" of Cliff in the eyes of everyone who read it -- which is silly, but that's how the world, especially an internet forum, works.

it's interesting to me that LVC couldn't get rid of the boomy sound no matter what he did, even with the speaker's designer on the phone (we know how phones transmit audio is such high quality!). perhaps something was malfunctioning in that specific unit.

regardless, echoing what Scott has been saying this whole time, ultimately it doesn't matter if the speaker is or isn't boomy to LVC - if it works for him cool, if not, return it, which he did. no problem.

LVC can forever say that his opinion is that the CLR "sounds/appears/seems" boomy to him, and to communicate this opinion he might even say "the clr IS boomy." but again at the same time, someone else can say that the CLR is not boomy inherently, backed up by measurements and analysis.
 
the same riff
at the same volume
with the same guitar
with the Q12 in the same position as the Atomic
same patch
same settings

it sounded even straight across.
To a naive observer with no specific information about either of the speakers in question, there would appear to be two possible causes for your experience:

1. Your preset has more bass than you like, the CLR accurately reproduces it, and the other speaker's bass deficiency tends to make the preset sound more balanced to you.

2. Your preset is balanced, the CLR has "too much" bass (defined as a peak in the response compared to other frequencies), and the other speaker is neutral (defined as flat).

You have only considered the second possibility, but the accurately documented response and directivity of the CLR - not to mention the hands-on experiences of many skilled, knowledgeable users - completely rule it out as a possibility.

Mutually-cancelling errors may on occasion appear to make things "right," but that appearance is deceptive. You yourself have stated that overdriven presets sound "good" (IOW, not "boomy") with the CLR. That is a direct admission on your part that the issue lies within the Axe-fx presets you have been using. If the CLR were causing your problem, it would be present on every preset you played through it.

I repeat : I made a good-faith effort to assist you in learning how to dial in the Axe-Fx. The CLR was not the cause of your problem.
 
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Some questions:

1) Was the CLR aimed at your head or no? Did you try it up on its side if you prefer to run that way?
2) Do you run the Matrix aimed at your head or no? Do you run it on its side? Where do you aim the speaker (ie is it hitting you in the back of the knees/your back/elevated at ear level?)

I would suppose given your description as quoted that you'd find (or the soundguy would find) your sound is boomy at the board if you run direct to FOH. I would guess you are far better off running a mic to your Matrix; but that removes the entire FRFR advantage and purpose. Laz, would you agree or not with that guess?

Hi Scott,

thanks for the questions.

I pretty much outlined my setup in my Opinion piece http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-...-q12-vs-atomic-clr-active-cab-comparison.html

But let me go over it with you

Both were setup the same way in my house

Here are two pictures of the Home positioning

Q12
file_zps17a3cadb.jpg


Atomic
file_zps7a559236.jpg


Here is the setup from my gig last saturday

I do not go through FOH. I use the cab as my only source of amplication.

typically we do not mike up..

Only times we mike up is when we do weddings/corp events -- for 90% of our shows -- there is no need to mike up since the venue sizes do not warrant it.



file_zps49491fa9.jpg



I will be taking out the Matrix amp and Q12 tomorrow night for a gig and will report back with how things went on Sunday.

with respect to my position in front of the cab in my home office -- approximately 8 feet away sitting in my chair at my desk about eye level.

Hope this helps
 
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The CLR finally gives the live Axe user a truly transparent live sound reproduction system to create with. What you dial into the Axe is what will come out. The CLR will do nothing for you. It will not add. It will not take away. All the tone work has to be done in the Axe.

Music to my ears...I'm very much looking forward to a pair of active wedges.
 
the point Scott is that you decided to turn it into a debate -- all I did was post an opinion piece.
I'm not Scott.

I have a very weak leg to stand on here at FAS wonderland compared to many of the power-posters and mods.

I own the CLR. Two of them.

I can't compare these to "other" FRFR systems because these represent my first foray into the realm of FRFR. What I can say is having sat behind the desk of 2 recording studios (one of which I was majority owner in); assisting several manufacturers of amps to hone-their-tone before amps are publicly marketed; and being pulled into some fine musical projects to "lend an ear" for talent that completely and utterly humbles me; the CLRs sound bang-on.

And lastly, I am by no means engaging in a bromance with Mt. Scott Peterson. I'm just saying, what I hear from the CLRs is nothing short of incredible; and it's not just A2 goods I'm pushing through these.
 
Excellent!

Great tools in the right hands 'produce" wonderful things!

I'm not Scott.

I have a very weak leg to stand on here at FAS wonderland compared to many of the power-posters and mods.

I own the CLR. Two of them.

I can't compare these to "other" FRFR systems because these represent my first foray into the realm of FRFR. What I can say is having sat behind the desk of 2 recording studios (one of which I was majority owner in); assisting several manufacturers of amps to hone-their-tone before amps are publicly marketed; and being pulled into some fine musical projects to "lend an ear" for talent that completely and utterly humbles me; the CLRs sound bang-on.

And lastly, I am by no means engaging in a bromance with Mt. Scott Peterson. I'm just saying, what I hear from the CLRs is nothing short of incredible; and it's not just A2 goods I'm pushing through these.
 
I have been following both options being discussed here and I the discussions that I have seen for the most part are about how they sound. One is truly flat...one hypes this...the other hypes that.

Does anyone who has tried one or the other (or both) have any comments on how they feel/respond. To me the feel is equally important.

This is actually my biggest beef with my current set up....it lacks dynamic response . It has no sensitivity. It seems full on or off, there is no in between.
 
You yourself have stated that overdriven presets sound "good" (IOW, not "boomy") with the CLR. That is a direct admission on your part that the issue lies within the Axe-fx presets you have been using. If the CLR were causing your problem, it would be present on every preset you played through it.

Sounds perfectly logical to me.
 
My point exactly. The former is perceived as opinion and the latter is perceived as fact.

And since its all about us human beings dealing with music as an expression with all our individual features, skills, features and defects, "facts" are pretty much useless
 
And since its all about us human beings dealing with music as an expression with all our individual features, skills, features and defects, "facts" are pretty much useless

i disagree.

facts may be "useless" in the grand scheme because although it may be a fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz at all (for example), someone may perceive the CLR as "very bassy" because of how his ears/brain hears sounds.

however, the fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz is very useful because it can help that person live in a world where most other people do NOT hear that 120hz boost as he does. since it's a fact that the speaker is actually not "very bassy" he can use that fact to interpret how everyone else is hearing the speaker and the world around them.

"i feel the speaker is bassy, but factually it isn't, so that means i perceive things as bassy. it may mean my hearing is very sensitive to bass frequencies. knowing that, when i mix a song or create a guitar tone, to me it may be very bassy, but to most others it is not very bassy. now i know how to make things sound good to the general public, thanks to the fact about the CLR."

of course, if the person allows himself to admit he perceives things differently and might not be "normal" in that respect.

sure, if he is only creating music for himself to listen to and enjoy, he can make it sound however he wants since he is the only audience. however, if he is trying to create music for others to listen to and enjoy, he should try to make it sound pleasurable to them as well. especially if there is a monetary reason for creating and sharing music, he'd better figure out what the audience prefers to hear so they like it and support his endeavors.


i've worked with more than a few audio engineers who crank the high end in general because to them, there's not enough clarity without the crank. but in reality (meaning "most people's opinion") it is very shrill. or maybe he's just trying to make us all lose our high-end too so we're even with him :p
 
I have been following both options being discussed here and I the discussions that I have seen for the most part are about how they sound. One is truly flat...one hypes this...the other hypes that.

Does anyone who has tried one or the other (or both) have any comments on how they feel/respond. To me the feel is equally important.

This is actually my biggest beef with my current set up....it lacks dynamic response . It has no sensitivity. It seems full on or off, there is no in between.

I thought both felt very good.

In my case one cab was active and the other passive.

Personally I enjoyed using an external powered solution more.
 
Nothing to do with you post -- but I just wanted to let you know I really enjoyed and learned a lot from your video tutorials.



i disagree.

facts may be "useless" in the grand scheme because although it may be a fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz at all (for example), someone may perceive the CLR as "very bassy" because of how his ears/brain hears sounds.

however, the fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz is very useful because it can help that person live in a world where most other people do NOT hear that 120hz boost as he does. since it's a fact that the speaker is actually not "very bassy" he can use that fact to interpret how everyone else is hearing the speaker and the world around them.

"i feel the speaker is bassy, but factually it isn't, so that means i perceive things as bassy. it may mean my hearing is very sensitive to bass frequencies. knowing that, when i mix a song or create a guitar tone, to me it may be very bassy, but to most others it is not very bassy. now i know how to make things sound good to the general public, thanks to the fact about the CLR."

of course, if the person allows himself to admit he perceives things differently and might not be "normal" in that respect.

sure, if he is only creating music for himself to listen to and enjoy, he can make it sound however he wants since he is the only audience. however, if he is trying to create music for others to listen to and enjoy, he should try to make it sound pleasurable to them as well. especially if there is a monetary reason for creating and sharing music, he'd better figure out what the audience prefers to hear so they like it and support his endeavors.
 
i disagree.

facts may be "useless" in the grand scheme because although it may be a fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz at all (for example), someone may perceive the CLR as "very bassy" because of how his ears/brain hears sounds.

however, the fact that the CLR doesn't boost 120hz is very useful because it can help that person live in a world where most other people do NOT hear that 120hz boost as he does. since it's a fact that the speaker is actually not "very bassy" he can use that fact to interpret how everyone else is hearing the speaker and the world around them.

"i feel the speaker is bassy, but factually it isn't, so that means i perceive things as bassy. it may mean my hearing is very sensitive to bass frequencies. knowing that, when i mix a song or create a guitar tone, to me it may be very bassy, but to most others it is not very bassy. now i know how to make things sound good to the general public, thanks to the fact about the CLR."

of course, if the person allows himself to admit he perceives things differently and might not be "normal" in that respect.

that was my meaning that we are individuals and "hear and feel" things differently. If I hear and feel things in a certain way that I like, no graph in the world could make me change my mind.
 
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