Atomic Active Cab vs. Matrix Q12a

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Per Scott's graph, there is a 2.5 db peak happening at 150hz... See link to a modified image. Is this the peak that LVC is hearing? If memory serves me right (it's all used up actually) most people can hear differences in amplitude in decibels at around 3db but it is a very small difference in volume and this volume difference can only be noted at certain levels in volume. You can't hear a 3db difference in volume at 50db but at 100db the increase in volume is more pronounced. Some people can hear amplitude changes better than others. Everyone's ear is different.

Could this be the missing link into where Big Foot lives and roams in the mountains?
 
That just means any setup booms for me with those presets. And that just means Scott luvs the low end more than i do :)

No, it means I set my presets up with my guitar and hands which more than likely just means you need to adjust said presets for your guitar and hand. If it is from over a year ago, it was probably done with my Melancon Custom Artist which is a very bright guitar... ;)
 
this is exactly what I'm going to do when I get my CLR but against my RCF NX 12 (and hopefully a Xitone cab if Jay still has his when I get my CLR)
I'm hoping it wows me and I end up keeping it so I can run one out left and one out right.
Should be that cats meow :)

Hey Nick, I had to give back the XiTone.....which was painful.
(I'll completely derail this thread and say) I ran the RCF - Output 1 and XiTone - Output 2.
Went back and forth for hours. Loved them both. Slightly different...but both awesome.
I already owned the RCF...the XiTone was a loan from Mick (at XiTone).
I'm still torn as to which is the best solution for me because they both sound excellent (life is tough....)
 
Neutral observation:

If some people here don´t "like" each other: Please do PM each other. Nothing personal, but i think it´s best that those thing are settled offline, or at least off public forum. This may be the way things are on forums. And that may be the reason i don´t participate on other forums than this. It´s to many preachers. Lot of people who want to tell me how i feel. Don´t do that. Please.
Not to many here. I like this forum.

So.. What about this gear??

I´m sure both sound great. CLR´s are flat, no argument. But why does flat has to be the best for everyone??

People saying that your personal opinon is wrong. That is one of the few things that p........... me off.
It´s like saying that someones guitarsound is "wrong"..... It´s not wrong. It´s personal.

As i read it:
LVC never stated that what he said was facts. It was a reveiw. Opinion. Different from others. Maybe different from mine too. But that´s not relevant at all. It´s not me that writing the reveiw. If he think that the CLR is boomy. It is to him. Got nothing to do with how good or flat they are. He did not like them, and said why. If he just said: "i don´t like them", everyone would ask why. Personal opinion.

He got the Axe to work for him. With minimal effort. That is what every soul that gets any gear want. I like to tweak. But i want it to sound good without 100 hour pr preset. Some people won´t get it to work for them. Respect that. Try to help, but respect.

If i love something and others don´t like it, i may be surprised, but won´t tell them that they are wrong.

Hmmmm.. Unless i´m drunk... I could discuss forever when i´m drunk :D

Anyway

Modelers and amplifying are kind of complicated. You must find a modeler, then the the right amp, ir, effects, THEN the amplifying system system.
Often we make presets at home. With HP or monitors. When you go to rehersal or a gig you turn up and FM-curve comes in. (Thanks to global eq. It saves)
But since there are a lot of amps and ir´s in a modeler, they react different to volume.

With a regular amp/cab there is not that much to relate. Even with that there are a lot of people who are frustated because their amp sound completly different than at home or yesterday. Room, volume, placement, tubes :D

But as an observer I think it´s strange that anyone would try to change a IMO. Unless you´re drunk, of course..... IMO..
 
what ever these graphs say, thats the way it sounded for him. he made a direct comparison of 2 products. anyway, i read alot of your stuff about axe fx, and it helped me alot.
thx...

I'm not debating his opinion or preference. I am disagreeing with him on an objective and easily measurable point. His characterization does bear serious scrutiny given the manner it was presented.

You look at the following graphs and explain where the 'boomy' character exhibits itself. Laz is directly asserting the speaker cab itself is boomy. I disagree with him. Nothing more, nothing less. These charts are from Atomic.

AtomicCLRFrequencyResponse_zps2d82b0f9.png


CLROffAxisResponses_zps9deaedad.png
 
One can't help but review the reviewers when reading these threads. Maybe we should have threads like that.. "Scott Peterson vs. LVC, pros and cons" :)

But seriously both you guys are well respected. I'm glad you are both here testing gear and sharing your educated views. Great service to the rest of us.

One comment, regardless of any real or perceived "Internet persona" or "forum gamesmanship". (I try to stay out of that). I think it's worthwhile to consider any reviewer's gear background. The most recent experiences are most critical.

Both of you are very experienced, but it occurs to me (correct me if I'm wrong guys);

LVC is a straight up "vintage amp guy" coming into this FRFR thing full on only a few months ago. Scott has been using modelers since even before he got his Axe-Fx Standard in 2007, and almost exclusively Axe into FRFR ever since, through a series of different monitor wedges.

To oversimplify...

1). Scott has a LOT of live band FRFR experience to back up his opinion of what makes a good FRFR monitor.

2). LVC has a LOT of (and recent) live band experience with real AMPS.

However, in the end most of us are trying to make our FRFRs sound like real amps. This is where it gets confusing.

IF the Matrix is really 'more guitar cab sounding' than the CLR, it makes perfect sense that LVC likes it better, regardless of how flat a line is on a graph.

Also, it would be awesome if Scott could get hold of a Matrix Q12 to review.
 
Both were cabs for me.

CLR was Active
Q12 was passive driven by a Matrix GT1000FX

Another "data" point to add to the calculus is how I use my cab.

I am not using it to "monitor" myself. I am using it as my only source of amplification at a gig at a club/restaurant or bar.


Not sure if this makes any difference -- but I think it is important to note


No comment on this? If it was true, it would make Scott and LVC BOTH right, and only Jay would be wrong. Wouldn't that be fun? :)
 
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All this "boom" talk reminds me of a song> Cars (cabs) that go boom.... Cars That Go Boom - YouTube

"We like the cars the cars that go "BOOM>" We're tigre and bunny and we like the "boom." remember that tune..As bad as it was.......lol

Just agree to disagree an move on.............

Side note...Has anyone used the same preset and output L > to CLR and Output R> to Q12A and Visa Versa ? One on each side of you and turning each ear Visa Versa? That would probably end the discussion on "Boominess" lol
So far I think only one other person said they have both but just got the CLR and have not gigged it yet. I have always wanted to hear more head to head to head reviews with the matrix, CLR and RCF
 
I have a mind blowing radical idea, if you find it boomy, use the Global EQ to notch the boominess out.

I use my Audeze LCD-2 headphones at home mainly, and tend to make my presets with them. They are very flat. Some frequencies sound a little different, especially at volume. As a result, I use the global EQ to get my Audeze tone through my CLRs.

Like anything, these is no one size fits all perfect answer.
 
All in all I need to thank everyone for making my Friday workday a fun one while reading all this. Thanks all for keeping composed during some sticky points and keeping this thread open. As a previous RCF owner, and a future CLR while always having been curious about matrix products, i agree that it would be great to hear a three way shootout be the aforementioned brands.
 
This is a great thread. Things get passionate and not just cold facts. Robbomans post (#48 ) (ok this is gettin' forum nerdy) is like the DING-DING-DING in a boxing match :D

Funny because we're really discussing different boxes and how they packs a punch.. get it? anyways, yeah. keep it this way. It's hot, but I hope nobody is burning their somethings.

IMHO the Q12A vs. CLR better be a hot thread! As I see it should be the most hot-potatoe-opinion-throwing-thread going on at the moment. Keepem coming guys, but keep your

heads cool and remember: community. friends. fractaliens. i'm done. (nothings like a video by the way, videos are great. more videos :D)
 
People saying that your personal opinon is wrong. That is one of the few things that p........... me off.
It´s like saying that someones guitarsound is "wrong"..... It´s not wrong. It´s personal.

My personal opinion is that 2 + 2 = 3.

Just saying... :)
 
Neutral observation:

If some people here don´t "like" each other: Please do PM each other. Nothing personal, but i think it´s best that those thing are settled offline, or at least off public forum. This may be the way things are on forums. And that may be the reason i don´t participate on other forums than this. It´s to many preachers. Lot of people who want to tell me how i feel. Don´t do that. Please.
Not to many here. I like this forum.

So.. What about this gear??

I´m sure both sound great. CLR´s are flat, no argument. But why does flat has to be the best for everyone??

People saying that your personal opinon is wrong. That is one of the few things that p........... me off.
It´s like saying that someones guitarsound is "wrong"..... It´s not wrong. It´s personal.

As i read it:
LVC never stated that what he said was facts. It was a reveiw. Opinion. Different from others. Maybe different from mine too. But that´s not relevant at all. It´s not me that writing the reveiw. If he think that the CLR is boomy. It is to him. Got nothing to do with how good or flat they are. He did not like them, and said why. If he just said: "i don´t like them", everyone would ask why. Personal opinion.

He got the Axe to work for him. With minimal effort. That is what every soul that gets any gear want. I like to tweak. But i want it to sound good without 100 hour pr preset. Some people won´t get it to work for them. Respect that. Try to help, but respect.

If i love something and others don´t like it, i may be surprised, but won´t tell them that they are wrong.

Hmmmm.. Unless i´m drunk... I could discuss forever when i´m drunk :D

Anyway

Modelers and amplifying are kind of complicated. You must find a modeler, then the the right amp, ir, effects, THEN the amplifying system system.
Often we make presets at home. With HP or monitors. When you go to rehersal or a gig you turn up and FM-curve comes in. (Thanks to global eq. It saves)
But since there are a lot of amps and ir´s in a modeler, they react different to volume.

With a regular amp/cab there is not that much to relate. Even with that there are a lot of people who are frustated because their amp sound completly different than at home or yesterday. Room, volume, placement, tubes :D

But as an observer I think it´s strange that anyone would try to change a IMO. Unless you´re drunk, of course..... IMO..

I can assure you, I am not drunk. Though I do feel, at this point, like exploring that option. But as a rule, I don't post when I am drunk. It doesn't turn out well.

Laz asserts the CLR is 'boomy'. I assert it is not. He asserts his bandmates found the CLR boomy. I assert my bandmates do not. I have scientific research to back up my assertions. Laz does not.

I am fully aware of FM curves, the pitfalls of using FRFR on a gig through running in that manner over hundreds and hundreds of gigs running direct to FOH and have decades of experience likewise using conventional rigs - amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Matchless, Bogner, Rivera, Dr.Z, H&K, THD, VHT, Guytron and literally dozens of other amps and cabs.

The CLR is not boomy by design, engineering, build or in practice. I have found no other person that has said anything of the sort - not Pete Thorn, not any other CLR owner - that even mentioned this supposed design/performance issue. "Flat matters" because it is accurate. So if you put in signal that is boomy, you will get boomy out. That is what I posted; Laz said he did not, the CLR was boomy by design instead. Or at least in practice. I call bologna on that.

Who I like doesn't matter to this. Who likes me doesn't matter to this. This isn't a popularity contest nor is it some sort of battle royal. I fully understand people don't need agree with me - and I fully understand people do not like it when someone calls someone else on the carpet. I find the entire affair humorous. I am not talking out of ignorance, nor defending a gear choice or pet company. I'm talking straight up. Laz might dislike me, Laz essentially warned Jay to lay off (which is pretty ballsy frankly) when Jay said Laz was misconstruing their conversation. I don't care. It bears no relevancy to the discussion.

Laz: It is boomy!
Scott: It is not!
Laz: It is boomy!
Scott: It is not! Here's proof.
Laz: So?

It's funny. :D

I would love the chance to review the Matrix. Given the comparison offered by Laz, I think it becomes important that at some point I do review it, if even just for my own curiosity. I have a good personal and professional relationship with Matt and Andy from Matrix, I have met them both and conversed with both gentlemen in person. I recently reviewed a power amp from them (positively) and have spent hours on the phone with Matt Button offering my opinions and discussing many things with him (including the Q12 but not limited to it). They have created some stellar gear. They have not yet contacted me about any review and I don't chase companies around seeking their gear to review. If they offer, I will accept.
 
IF the Matrix is really 'more guitar cab sounding' than the CLR, it makes perfect sense that LVC likes it better, regardless of how flat a line is on a graph.

That's right. If the Matrix is designed to over or under emphasize certain guitar-specific frequencies, then using it would take up some learning curve slack for a new user.

Using a "biased" FRFR solution with the Axe causes a host of other problems though:

~You will never hear what the Axe is actually putting out. All of your patches will be tailored to your biased speaker. Go direct in a decent quality studio and your patches aren't going to sound the way you expect. Send a direct signal to FOH and your patches, which are already compensating for your biased speaker, are going to have to be readjusted in even weirder ways to compensate for the inevitable bias of the house system.
~Having a weird guitar-specific EQ bias built into your FRFR solution is going to cause some of the same problems that guitar speaker cabinets cause; the rig will sound great in some rooms and awful in others. Sort of defeats a huge part of going FRFR in the first place.
~Many users like to match their favorite "real" amps in the Axe through use of varying amp models and different IRs. Using the CLR gives the cleanest artistic "canvas" possible for re-creating the nuances of your real amps and guitar speakers. An overly biased FRFR solution will make attaining highly detailed versions of certain "real" amp/cabinet combinations very difficult.

Some thoughts:
Many of us that use FRFR speakers want our rigs to only exist in the Axe. That, for me, is the whole reason I got into modeling in the first place. I don't want my sound reproduction solution doing ANY of the coloring. That means I have to learn the Axe well enough to be able to dial in what I want to hear. The Axe is not a plug and play toy.

If your Axe patch or patches sound bottom heavy and/or "boomy" through the CLR, then you have dialed in bottom heavy and/or "boomy" settings in the Axe. You can buy FRFR solutions that sound different than the CLR, but you cannot buy any FRFR solution that is more accurate and transparent at giving you exactly what the Axe is sending; i.e. you are hearing the full capability of the Axe reflected through your settings and choice of amp model and IR.

If your Axe patch or patches sound bottom heavy and/or "boomy" through the CLR but they sound "not-boomy" or bass heavy through your other FRFR solution, then your other FRFR solution is not accurate or transparent. That's just the way of things. There are insurmountable physics issues involved that transcend your and my emotions and opinions. <---This is a tough one for lots of guitar oriented folks. As soon as FRFR thinking is engaged, guitar speaker thinking must be dis-engaged. It is very difficult for guitarists to shake the thinking that says, "my speaker exists as part of the tone shaping process".

With the CLR, your choice of speaker IR is arguably the most important decision in the creation of your patches. Ignore the names of the IRs and experiment. I originally used only the near field IRs that come with the Axe. Jay convinced me to relearn the Axe using only far field IRs. That made all the difference in the world for me.

If I needed biased speakers to "color", "warm", or in any other way shape what is coming out of the Axe, then I wouldn't want to use the Axe. That was the way things were back when the first modelers came out. Those days are long gone. But the price tag for full investment in the "it's-all-in-the-Axe" modeling paradigm is surrender of guitar-speaker-mindset.

The CLR finally gives the live Axe user a truly transparent live sound reproduction system to create with. What you dial into the Axe is what will come out. The CLR will do nothing for you. It will not add. It will not take away. All the tone work has to be done in the Axe.
 
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While I do appreciate all the technical information (I am studying maths and physics at uni), sometimes I just go back to the 'if it sounds good...it sounds good' principle. I think this holds true especially when you are using your axe-fx plus speakers as the main source of sound for smaller gigs.

I'm still using an EV elx112p speaker. May upgrade to a matrix or atomic cab in the future when i have the cash though. Thanks to everyone for their insights and discussion.
 
Is this your idea of interpreting a review?
Folks opinions don't matter only Scott's opinion is valid on forums.
If you have an opinion that is not in line with Scott's than you are an idiot and he has a chart to prove it.


So the moral of the story -- please do not disagree with Scott. Your opinions do not matter.

His word is bible around here.

If Scott says it is true -- than it must be true.


Here is my detailed "opinion" piece that you have just mocked. http://forum.fractalaudio.com/amps-...-q12-vs-atomic-clr-active-cab-comparison.html



So when I see this type of behavior from a poster on gear forms --- my little radar goes off


shill-warning.jpg

I am no shill. It is common behavior when losing a debate and you do not have fact on your side to attack the other person's character. It's called "Ad hominem" and you've already attempted it twice. Your characterization of my position is likewise flawed, I am not mocking you. I am disagreeing with you. I'm sorry you don't like it Laz.

Anyone can freely disagree with me; but base it in fact or leave it to subjective difference. I'd like you explore why you felt the CLR was boomy. Because the speaker itself is not; that is what I am establishing and have proof of. You also mentioned a 'metallic' sound; I'd like you further discuss that in detail. I've never heard anything approaching that through using dozens of different FRFR speakers - including Matrix products. Don't attack character of the other person; this isn't about you or me. There are plenty of other people on this thread and your other thread that have disagreed - some strongly - with your entire premise of 'boomy'. Explain to me what you are discussing and explore it for me. There has to be a root cause. It isn't the speaker.
 
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