Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

[unix-guy]

Well I'll make it clear then. A $600 AC15 blows my 3,000 investment in an Axe and FRFR out of the room. And that's saying a lot.

You are rehashing a discussion that's already been had.

You aren't making anything clearer because, as already stated, you are comparing two different things.

I'll just drop out of this discussion now, as you seem intent on ignoring that fact and I don't have the energy to argue with you.

 

[ChainOfThought]

Well I'll make it clear then. A $600 AC15 blows my 3,000 investment in an Axe and FRFR out of the room. And that's saying a lot.

And again, you're comparing an amp in the room through a cab, to a mic'ed cab tone through an FRFR system.

Get next to that ac15 again, pull up a comparable model on the axefx, turn off poweramp & cabinet simulations, run the axefx output into the fx-return of the amp and then see what you think of the comparison.

Comparing the tone of an IR into an FRFR against an amp with a cabinet doesn't make any sense. Nothing blew anything out of the water, except maybe the concept of playing through an amp/cab in the room vs playing an IR through an FRFR. Here's the other way to look at it, take that AC15, put a mic in front of it, play it in a sound-isolated booth and listen to the recording/mic signal in a different room where you can't hear the actual amp. Compare THAT to your axefx through an FRFR.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Know what’s wrong with an AC15 ? It can only sound like an AC....

Want a different amp tone, got to get yourself another amp. Want delay or any other effect, got to get yourself a pedal...

Repeat each and every time and it adds up quickly

 

[lqdsnddist]

If I was very wealthy I’d certainly love to have a few warehouses of amps, techs to keep them all running, and a place to crank them up.

Given I’m not, The Axe is as close as I can get and takes little space, no maintanice, and sounds great at any volume...

Come to think of it, even if I were a millionaire I’d still keep my Axe and honestly I’d probably spend more time playing it than my warehouse of amps just because it’s ready at the flip of a switch

 

[ChainOfThought]

Yeah. I run my axe through a poweramp & cabs, the other guitarist in the project/rehearsal space runs a Mesa MkIV with an Engl E-530 & G-Major in the loop...he uses other rack gear that allows him to basically pick the mesa or the engl preamp and run either through the mesa's poweramp individually. His rack/head runs through a marshall 4x12 with v30 & g12t-75, I run my axe through a matrix poweramp into two orange ppc112's and a vader 2x12.

IMO, the axe "blows his stack out of the water." The tone is absolutely enormous, the feel is incredible. I often go down rabbit holes trying out different amp models and fx setups etc etc etc. I've got maybe 20-30 pounds racked up (I have a heavier all-wood rack) where he's probably got 50-60 pounds easily in his rack and I've already seen him have to replace tubes once.


This "argument" is stupid. Everyone has their own preference, there are pro's & con's to every setup.

 

[Perdikament]

Well I'll make it clear then. A $600 AC15 blows my 3,000 investment in an Axe and FRFR out of the room. And that's saying a lot.

You’re listening to two different things.
If you took the AxeFX and ran it into a poweramp then into the back [cab] of the AC15, (effectively using it as just a cab) then it should be the same, or at least very close. Anyway, THAT would be a fair comparison.
Or you have to mic up the AC15 and listen to that mic’d sound only vs the AxeFX tone with the cab sim or tonematch to compare those two tones.

 

[BBN]

I often use an amp block without a cab block and think it sounds great with respect to clean tones, however what does any of this have to do with the comments in my previous post?

Sorry, that comment about the PEQ vs. IR was towards Unix-Guy noting that it wasn't a recommended method.
I was trying to cut down the number of posts I was creating, so combined my response.

 

[BBN]

What signal are you sending to this cab? One with a Cab block and cabinet modeling enabled? Or with no Cab block?

If there were no Cab block, it would be a Cab in the room... Because it's just a (non-traditional) guitar speaker in a cabinet with a built-in power amp.

If there is a Cab block and cabinet modeling enabled, I would calling it a really bad FRFR

Unix-guy thanks for responding to this.
The reason I asked is because I wanted to illustrate that the 'amp in the room' debate boils down to actually driver that is in the box (and of course how well the box is made).

For the sake of discussions, if you take a Friedman or XiTone that is built in a similar form to what a traditional 1x12 guitar cab looks like, the only major difference is the speaker/driver. You pull the Full Range speaker out of the Friedman (and disable the tweeter) and put in a V30, it will sound like a guitar cab (and people will say - it's 'amp in the room')....well how did that happen, the amp didn't change?

What drives me a little crazy about the 'amp in the room' debate is that it has nothing to do with the amp.
It's is the type of driver in the box that makes the difference.

Same box, same power amp, same Axe FX.....you either put a Full Range speaker in there with an IR....or you put a guitar speaker in there with no IR. That is what I see as the 'choice' to be made.
Do you like Full Range drivers, or do you like Guitar Specific Drivers...?
Yes, the quality and design of the box makes a difference, but that's a different discussion.

The other difficultly is that not all FRFR are created equal...not by a long shot.
There is much greater variation in the quality of FRFR, based on what you are willing to spend.
Or I should say - it's easier to get a quality guitar cab for minimal $, but not as easy with FRFR. So it's easy to see why people give up on it.
But IMO, when you spend the money for an excellent FRFR, and get comfortable dialing it in, the flexibility it offers outweighs the 'differences' it has to a guitar cab.

 

[StickMan]

And again, you're comparing an amp in the room through a cab, to a mic'ed cab tone through an FRFR system.

Get next to that ac15 again, pull up a comparable model on the axefx, turn off poweramp & cabinet simulations, run the axefx output into the fx-return of the amp and then see what you think of the comparison.

Comparing the tone of an IR into an FRFR against an amp with a cabinet doesn't make any sense. Nothing blew anything out of the water, except maybe the concept of playing through an amp/cab in the room vs playing an IR through an FRFR. Here's the other way to look at it, take that AC15, put a mic in front of it, play it in a sound-isolated booth and listen to the recording/mic signal in a different room where you can't hear the actual amp. Compare THAT to your axefx through an FRFR.

I think you guys are all missing the point that App12 is making. He's just saying that the AC15 sounded better than his AxeFX. It's not an apples vs. oranges thing, and I don't remember any claims about "sameness", just subjective quality of the sound.

I think it raises an interesting question, "Is a real cab always going to sound better than FRFR?".

Just to be clear, I think we established that "amp in the room" is a very rare experience and pretty much limited to the guys in the band when playing. Virtually every other listening experience is going to be through a microphone. The tones we know from classic albums are all through a microphone.

But, if your tone goal is to sound as good as possible when playing with your buddies in your basement, is the answer always going to be a real cabinet?

 

[Perdikament]

I think you guys are all missing the point that App12 is making. He's just saying that the AC15 sounded better than his AxeFX. It's not an apples vs. oranges thing, and I don't remember any claims about "sameness", just subjective quality of the sound.

I think it raises an interesting question, "Is a real cab always going to sound better than FRFR?".

Just to be clear, I think we established that "amp in the room" is a very rare experience and pretty much limited to the guys in the band when playing. Virtually every other listening experience is going to be through a microphone. The tones we know from classic albums are all through a microphone.

But, if your tone goal is to sound as good as possible when playing with your buddies in your basement, is the answer always going to be a real cabinet?

No, not for me. I will choose FRFR & AxeFX Over Amp 100% of the time.
And I actually have, I no longer own any amps, I sold them all. Vibro-King, Super Sonic, Mesa Maverick, Uberschall, Mode 4, all sold.

 

[ChainOfThought]

The rest of his posts make it pretty clear that he wants the axefx through an ir/frfr to sound more like the ac15 through it's cab, so he basically is trying to directly compare the two very different types of amplification.

There will never be any one answer that will always be the answer. Everyone has different preferences, scenarios and uses for the gear. Personally I prefer to run through a couple guitar cabs, but I'm also playing with a guy thats running a tube amp through a 4x12, so it makes sense to match his setup rather than try and combine two different types of tones.

There are so many off-shoots in this thread of people arguing semantics that are tired and old--E.G. "amp in the room" vs "cab in the room" ...pretty sure we're all well aware that when someone says "amp in the room" they're just talking about a traditional guitar cab--or talking about things that don't make any sense and comparing things that have no business being compared. Its gotten pretty ridiculous and I don't think I can try and keep up any more.

 

[unix-guy]

I think you guys are all missing the point that App12 is making. He's just saying that the AC15 with guitar cabinet sounded better than his AxeFX with FRFR cabinet and IR. It's not an apples vs. oranges thing, and I don't remember any claims about "sameness", just subjective quality of the sound.

I understand completely. Maybe you don't understand my point... I've fixed your reply above to show the apples vs oranges difference.

Anyway, the reason I'm sticking to this point is that @App12 has mentioned elsewhere something like "hopefully the accuracy of the AC15 model can be improved"... And uses the same logic to make this very different comparison.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Real doesn’t always equal better. Someone may prefer a real amp, as in this case, but it’s a subjective thing. I don’t like vox amps in general, so probably wouldn’t find one in the room with me to sound that impressive.

Ever drive a classic car this 100% restored to spec ? It’s authentic but it kind of sucks with crappy drum brakes, lacks EFI etc. I totally prefer driving modern builds on vintage frames. Give me 4 wheel Brenbo disc brakes, a modern motor etc. just drives way easier and still looks cool. Authentic is just that, authentic, not better.

This isn’t to say anyone opinion of liking an amp better is wrong, but it’s also not an absolute thing. So many times folks seem to make it out that one couldn’t possibly prefer the axe tones, which obviously could happen.

An unauthentic model of an amp might be closer to my tonal nirvana than actually playing the real amp

 

[Jason Scott]

I think you guys are all missing the point that App12 is making. He's just saying that the AC15 sounded better than his AxeFX. It's not an apples vs. oranges thing, and I don't remember any claims about "sameness", just subjective quality of the sound.

It's apples and oranges because he's comparing the sound of an unmic'd amp to that of a mic'd amp.

 

[App12]

You are rehashing a discussion that's already been had.

You aren't making anything clearer because, as already stated, you are comparing two different things.

I'll just drop out of this discussion now, as you seem intent on ignoring that fact and I don't have the energy to argue with you.

I guess I could always tell the audience “yes my $600 amp sounds better than my $3,000 gear, but through the logic of apples to oranges it doesn’t really.”

 

[ChainOfThought]

I guess I could always tell the audience “yes my $600 amp sounds better than my $3,000 gear, but through the logic of apples to oranges it doesn’t really.”

The whole point is that the typical audience will be hearing the amp through a mic and coming over the FOH mains, which is similar to the axefx with a cab block and frfr system. And the whole other point is that you can run the axefx through a power amp and traditional cab if you'd rather have it sound similar to that traditional guitar amp/cab. Your argument is absurd, you aren't comparing things that bear comparison. As I've stated previously, go run your axefx through a power amp and cab that are similar/identical to that ac15 and put that in the same room and then see what you think. At least at that point if you prefer one or the other it will be a legitimate comparison.

 

[unix-guy]

I guess I could always tell the audience “yes my $600 amp sounds better than my $3,000 gear, but through the logic of apples to oranges it doesn’t really.”

You're right. Obviously, you should sell your Axe Fx. It's inferior, as you've now proven to me and everyone else.

 

[App12]

You're right. Obviously, you should sell your Axe Fx. It's inferior, as you've now proven to me and everyone else.

As I mentioned before I need to shoot some IR’s and try tone match. Probably use my axe in front of the amp though (the amp does not have a send / return). I’m sorry you are unhappy with the fact that along with me me others in the room could tell a clear difference. I was pretty annoyed myself actually which is why I went and bought my own AC but I am okay with you feeling that way.

 

[Jason Scott]

I guess I could always tell the audience “yes my $600 amp sounds better than my $3,000 gear, but through the logic of apples to oranges it doesn’t really.”

Have you ever compared the sound of your AC15 to the Axe FX's AC15 amp model through a power amp into a standard guitar cab? You don't seem to understand the difference between FRFR and a standard guitar cab. An IR through an FRFR represents the sound of a mic'd amp rather than the sound you hear when sitting in front of and playing a guitar through an actual amp and standard cab. Thus, comparing the AC15 to the Axe FX with an FRFR speaker is like comparing the sound of a recording of an AC15 over studio monitors to actually sitting in a room and playing an actual AC15. In other words, it's not comparable. If you actually tried comparing the Axe FX's AC15 amp model through a power amp into a standard guitar cab, you'd likely find that it sounds like your $600 AC15.

 

[App12]

Hi Jason - I have not. There is no return on the amp so not sure how to bypass the rest of the amp and just use the cab. The initial attraction of the Axe was to simplify things not end up buying even more gear to cart around. I understand that some people don’t like the fact that their logic doesn’t hold up under some basic questioning - no one wants to spend a lot of money and have the cheaper option sound better. But that is where it is at for me and if that bothers some that my experience doesn’t match theirs it doesn’t bother me in the least.