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Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

Birdy

Inspired
What tone styles do you prefer for your presets?
Amp in a room or studio recorded?
And what would you do differently when creating each type of tone?

Happy discussion!
 

FreeMind

Power User
I don't think an amp in a room sound is possible on FRFR.
Amp in the room requires an Amp in the room. Literally.

The whole point of amp in the room, is that you hear a guitar cab directly, without coloration of other mediums.

I too like that most.
There ain't nothing like an actual guitar cab rumbling everything directly...
 

Birdy

Inspired
I don't think an amp in a room sound is possible on FRFR.
Amp in the room requires an Amp in the room. Literally.

The whole point of amp in the room, is that you hear a guitar cab directly, without coloration of other mediums.

I too like that most.
There ain't nothing like an actual guitar cab rumbling everything directly...
What do you think is lacking?
The FRFR speakers? Or the cab simulation?
 

FreeMind

Power User
What do you think is lacking?
The FRFR speakers? Or the cab simulation?
A real, direct, cab.
An FRFR can only do Cab simulations, or actual mic'ed cabs.
All cab sims are simulations of Mic'ed cabs.
They are IR's, captured by placing a mic to a cab.
They are a mixture of a cab tone, Mic coloration, mic placement coloration and room coloration.
You cannot capture Ir's, or record guitars, without all of this coloration happening.

A lot of people prefer FRFR because:
1) They sound like the tones they like from actual studio recordings.
2) FRFR are not nearly as directional as real cabs are. A cab sounds drastically different, depending on where you stand, listening to it.
3) You can switch cab sims freely, any time, during a performance and get a variety of tones. You cannot do that with a real cab.

I am more of an oldschool Amp-Cab guy.
Though, during a live performance, i use both. That is, the cab stands on the stage to keep the feel, but IR's go to the fronthoutse, so i don't have to mic the cab.
Best of both worlds.

That being said, the cab simulation in the Axe FX is perfect. I can't really imagine how it could be better, except that some things that happen to real amps naturally with cabs, have to be dialed in manually in the axe FX. If they are not dialed in correctly, they don't give authentic results.
 
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Birdy

Inspired
A real, direct, cab.
All cab sims are simulations of Mic'ed cabs.
They are IR's, captured by placing a mic to a cab.
They are a mixture of a cab tone, Mic coloration, mic placement coloration and room coloration.
You cannot capture Ir's, or record guitars, without all of this coloration happening.

A lot of people prefer FRFR because:
1) They sound like the tones they like from actual studio recordings.
2) FRFR are not nearly as directional as real cabs are. A cab sounds drastically different, depending on where you stand, listening to it.
3) You can switch cab sims freely, any time, during a performance and get a variety of tones. You cannot do that with a real cab.

I am more of an oldschool Amp-Cab guy.
Though, during a live performance, i use both. That is, the cab stands on the stage to keep the feel, but IR's go to the fronthoutse, so i don't have to mic the cab.
Best of both worlds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IR makers are trying to get a studio/mic'ed up tones.
I don't recall seeing an IR claiming to (or captured in a way that) sound like an amp in a room. (Even the room IRs)
Maybe if someone would've tried hard to actually record the cab like it sounds in the room, they might be able to make this IR.
I believe this is possible because it has been done for ages on other instruments.
There are countless of recordings that sound like you're standing in the room with the instrument (acoustic guitars, strings, percussion).
Hell, maybe even binaural recordings might do the trick!
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Amp in room is just that, amp in room

The sound a 1x12 combo amp in your bedroom as your sitting there playing it sounds different than when you stick a mic in front of it and record it

Play the axe through a real cab and it will sound like an amp in the room

Also keep in mind amp in room depends on the room. Take a real amp onto an outdoor stage and it sure sounds different than when in a 10 deer bedroom
 

Birdy

Inspired
Amp in room is just that, amp in room

The sound a 1x12 combo amp in your bedroom as your sitting there playing it sounds different than when you stick a mic in front of it and record it

Play the axe through a real cab and it will sound like an amp in the room

Also keep in mind amp in room depends on the room. Take a real amp onto an outdoor stage and it sure sounds different than when in a 10 deer bedroom
Of course, I was asking what do you prefer :)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Keep in mind too that cabs aren’t inheriently “better”, rather just what some folks are used to.

I had a DRRI next my to ClR/II rig and honestly preferred the CLR. Why? Because it had better dispersion. The Real cab was way more directional, even being open back. Unless I tilted the amp towards my ears it lacked high. Guitar cabs are very directional by nature, off axis sounds different than having a cone hitting your knees than it does your ears

My CLR gives pretty even/flat response as I move around the room, which to me is a superior thing.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Unless one is playing for their own enjoyment (which is fine) I don’t really see the point of a great amp in room tone.

Unless you have people come sit in your bedroom how are you going to share your music and the tone with the world ?

Not going to get that sound on a stage nor are you going to share it via a recording. It simply isn’t repeatable, and to me, a consistent tone that goes on the album, that comes out of the live PA, and that I hear playing at home, is what I’m personally after.

It’s well and good to have a great amp in an acoustically ideal room, but it’s really only for ones personal enjoyment
 

FreeMind

Power User
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IR makers are trying to get a studio/mic'ed up tones.
I don't recall seeing an IR claiming to (or captured in a way that) sound like an amp in a room. (Even the room IRs)
Maybe if someone would've tried hard to actually record the cab like it sounds in the room, they might be able to make this IR.
I believe this is possible because it has been done for ages on other instruments.
There are countless of recordings that sound like you're standing in the room with the instrument (acoustic guitars, strings, percussion).
Hell, maybe even binaural recordings might do the trick!
You don't quite get what "Amp in the room" is.
This is not the same as putting on headphones, and getting an impression, that you are somewhere else, listening to a cab in a room. That's a whole different thing. That's some virtual reality stuff lol.
If you put that kind of audio through a FRFR you'd be listening to a simulated room, within a room. That's some inception stuff :D

When people refer to "Amp in the room", they mean a very direct Amp signal.
Your actual room, and where the cab is placed within that room, and how you stand in reference to that cab, does all the coloration.

Have you ever owned a real amp?
 
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Birdy

Inspired
You don't quite get what "Amp in the room" is.
This is not the same as putting on headphones, and getting an impression, that you are somewhere else, listening to a cab in a room. That's a whole different thing. That's some virtual reality stuff lol.
If you put that kind of audio through a FRFR you'd be listening to a simulated room, within a room. That's some inception stuff :D

When people refer to "Amp in the room", they mean a very direct Amp signal.
Your actual room does all the coloration.

Have you ever owned a real amp?
Haha of course I owned a real amp.
By the way, the original intent of my thread was discussing amp vs studio both in FRFR!
Not a cab vs FRFR thread, haha!
But since you brought it up, I'm just saying that I believe it can be achieved, since it can be done on many other instruments.
And I believe that some studio rooms and monitors can be "transparent" enough to still recreate that without the "room in a room" sound.
But I might be wrong.
 

muudrock

Experienced
You really can't simulate an "amp in a room" with FR speakers. Think of it this way, the sound from a guitar cab in the room is very directional and your perception of the overall sound will change based on the room and where you are in that room in relation to that cabinet. If you're 10 ft away and off center it will sound very different to you than if you were 2 ft away in line with a speaker.
An IR is a static filter--a snapshot of a mic on a speaker in a cab in a space- it does not change. A live cab in a room is a dynamic sound producing device that changes with volume, gain, your relative position to the sound source, the room itself and even temperature and humidity.
In essence using FR speakers in a guitar rig is simply listening to a copy of a specific sound generated at specific volume under specific conditions captured with specific equipment.
All that being said, you can achieve great results with the currently available IRs and FRFR systems available. It just won't be identical to having a live cab in the room.
You can add room reverb and/or room mic IR captures to create some space "around" the IR if you don't want an overly dry, upfront sound.
FWIW, the best solution for me has been the Friedman ASC12 cab. It sounds a lot like a live guitar cab and not too polished. I used to run a live cab on stage, but no more.
 

Birdy

Inspired
Unless one is playing for their own enjoyment (which is fine) I don’t really see the point of a great amp in room tone.

Unless you have people come sit in your bedroom how are you going to share your music and the tone with the world ?

Not going to get that sound on a stage nor are you going to share it via a recording. It simply isn’t repeatable, and to me, a consistent tone that goes on the album, that comes out of the live PA, and that I hear playing at home, is what I’m personally after.

It’s well and good to have a great amp in an acoustically ideal room, but it’s really only for ones personal enjoyment
I totally agree.
Though my original intention was amp in a room sound still via FRFR.
I guess my wording was a bit confusing, maybe I should have said "raw amp vs guitar in a mix".
 

Birdy

Inspired
You really can't simulate an "amp in a room" with FR speakers. Think of it this way, the sound from a guitar cab in the room is very directional and your perception of the overall sound will change based on the room and where you are in that room in relation to that cabinet. If you're 10 ft away and off center it will sound very different to you than if you were 2 ft away in line with a speaker.
An IR is a static filter--a snapshot of a mic on a speaker in a cab in a space- it does not change. A live cab in a room is a dynamic sound producing device that changes with volume, gain, your relative position to the sound source, the room itself and even temperature and humidity.
In essence using FR speakers in a guitar rig is simply listening to a copy of a specific sound generated at specific volume under specific conditions captured with specific equipment.
All that being said, you can achieve great results with the currently available IRs and FRFR systems available. It just won't be identical to having a live cab in the room.
You can add room reverb and/or room mic IR captures to create some space "around" the IR if you don't want an overly dry, upfront sound.
FWIW, the best solution for me has been the Friedman ASC12 cab. It sounds a lot like a live guitar cab and not too polished. I used to run a live cab on stage, but no more.
Well, let's I'm not moving, and I'm in an air conditioned room!
Lol!
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
There is nothing really unique or special about a FRFR speaker. It’s simply a speaker that is designed to have a wide frequency response that is as flat as possible and with a wide dispersion. It avoids coloring the tone as it shouldn’t introduce its own affect on the tone

A typical guitar speaker might have a peak at certain frequencies which may or may not enhance the tone, it’s also more directional, some to the extend of being “beamy” on axis, and if the cab is open will have a unique dispersion.

You can cut the highs on a frfr speaker and open the back and it will sound pretty similar to a typical open back cab, provided both are in the same room.

Frfr is simply a loud speaker at the end of the day
 

FreeMind

Power User
Haha of course I owned a real amp.
By the way, the original intent of my thread was discussing amp vs studio both in FRFR!
Not a cab vs FRFR thread, haha!
But since you brought it up, I'm just saying that I believe it can be achieved, since it can be done on many other instruments.
And I believe that some studio rooms and monitors can be "transparent" enough to still recreate that without the "room in a room" sound.
But I might be wrong.
Let's put it this way - Your tone, going from the FRFR should always be a "Studio recorded tone".
Anything else, I don't think would work in a mix.
 

Birdy

Inspired
There is nothing really unique or special about a FRFR speaker. It’s simply a speaker that is designed to have a wide frequency response that is as flat as possible and with a wide dispersion. It avoids coloring the tone as it shouldn’t introduce its own affect on the tone

A typical guitar speaker might have a peak at certain frequencies which may or may not enhance the tone, it’s also more directional, some to the extend of being “beamy” on axis, and if the cab is open will have a unique dispersion.

You can cut the highs on a frfr speaker and open the back and it will sound pretty similar to a typical open back cab, provided both are in the same room.

Frfr is simply a loud speaker at the end of the day
Yes that's why it's called FRFR ;)
 
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