Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

That's not relevant. He's saying that the $600 amp sounds better than the $3000 modeller.

Like I said, no one has a problem with anyone's preference. After all, lots of guitarists prefer the sound of an unmic'd cab, but a lot of guitarists wouldn't base their opinion of the Axe FX's modeling on a comparison between the sound of an amp through an unmic'd cab vs. amp models through a mic'd cab. It's the comparison that the preference is based on that some people had an issue with.

If he said, "The sound of the Telecaster blew away the sound of the Les Paul", you wouldn't all be jumping down his throat telling him you can't compare a Telecaster to a Les Paul because they're like "apples and oranges". You'd accept that he heard them both and preferred [the wrong] one.

Preferences aside, comparing a Telecaster to a Les Paul isn't analogous to comparing the sound of a mic'd vs unmic'd cab. It would be analogous to comparing two completely different amps. However, in this case, it's like you saying, 'When cranked in a room, my Fender Deluxe blows away this other Fender Deluxe I heard in a recording'. I mean, you're entitled to think whatever you want, but why would you compare the sound of an amp cranked in a room to a recording of a cranked amp? Why not compare both amps cranked in a room? I mean, if you were initially lead to believe and expected that they would sound the same based on glowing reviews, you should also consider that most reviewers weren't basing their opinion on an apples to oranges comparison.

Personally, I think that to have a situation, almost any situation, where the real amp "blew away" the AxeFX says more about the set-up of the preset, and possible the FRFR hardware, than it does about the capabilities of the AxeFX.

Again, how can one make any sort of qualitative assessment of the Axe's amp modeling if the basis for the assessment is derived from a comparison between the sound of an amp through an unmic'd cab vs. an amp model through a mic'd cab? It's undoubtedly a faulty comparison.
 
Hi Jason - I have not. There is no return on the amp so not sure how to bypass the rest of the amp and just use the cab. The initial attraction of the Axe was to simplify things not end up buying even more gear to cart around. I understand that some people don’t like the fact that their logic doesn’t hold up under some basic questioning - no one wants to spend a lot of money and have the cheaper option sound better. But that is where it is at for me and if that bothers some that my experience doesn’t match theirs it doesn’t bother me in the least.

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edited to add: I missed the last page of replies before typing this post, but I'm gonna leave it here for posterity anyways. And add this bit
That's not relevant. He's saying that the $600 amp sounds better than the $3000 modeller. If he said, "The sound of the Telecaster blew away the sound of the Les Paul", you wouldn't all be jumping down his throat telling him you can't compare a Telecaster to a Les Paul because they're like "apples and oranges". You'd accept that he heard them both and preferred [the wrong] one.
How is it not relevant and how is that analogy at all applicable? He's saying a 600$ amp sitting in the room with him sounds better than a 3000$ modeler running a cab IR through an FRFR monitor. Thats not at all like comparing a tele to an LP, thats more (but of course not exactly) like comparing playing a tele yourself to watching your buddy play an LP. What he's trying to say is that Amp A sounds better than Amp B when both amps are in the room being played next to eachother. What he's actually saying is that Amp A sounds better than Amp B when Amp B is being recorded in a sound-isolated booth and you're sitting on the outside listening on headphones or monitors.
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I'm pretty sure at this point that you've gotta be a troll. There's no other possible way that you've had this very simple idea explained to you so many ways by so many people that are trying to help and you still refuse to accept it. But I'll bite and try this one more time.

Our logic does "stand up to basic questioning." Its yours that absolutely does not. The reason the axefx can simplify your rig is because you can send your signal direct to the FOH (front of house) mains without needing to mic up a cab. The trade-off in that scenario is that you don't have a cab on stage, so you rely on an FRFR speaker, stage monitors, or in-ear monitors to hear yourself playing. None of those monitoring solutions will ever sound or feel like an actual guitar cab sitting behind you on stage. Thats not a flaw or shortcoming of the axefx, thats the way that two very different systems work. Gigging musicians who understand this concept use an axefx so they can show up with a 2u rack and a foot controller, plug one or two cables into the stage snake and be done with setup. They understand that the traditional cab on the stage is only for them, that the audience doesn't hear it anyways, and that they can get a cleaner, often better sound out the audience by running direct. If you take that ac15 to a gig, the soundman is going put a microphone in front of it. He's going to tell you to turn it down quieter than you want it so that your amp isn't projecting much/any sound off the stage and into the audience. He's going to EQ that microphone signal so it sounds good in the venue and he's going to amplify that through the FOH mains. If you stand in the audience during that gig, you're going to hear the sound coming from that microphone, not the sound from that amp sitting in the room. If you put THAT sound on the left side of the stage and then put an axefx with an ac15 model & similar (good) cab IR running through the right and then stand in the audience, the sound is going to comparable.

You continuing to sit here saying a tube combo amp is somehow objectively better than an axefx because it sounds better in the room than the axefx does with an frfr setup is tiring and frankly asinine. If your use-case for an amplifier or the axefx is such that you'd enjoy a tube combo amp more, then by all means, go buy a combo amp and cart that around to play with. Alternatively, spend anywhere from 50$-1000$ on any plethora of options for poweramps (I've had good luck with both an EHX Magnum .44 for ~100$ and a Matrix GT1000FX for ~600$, depending on the volume needed) and a decent 1x12 cab and run the axefx that way. Then you can still utilize the whole library of amp models plus all the effects and everything else.

As far as trying this setup out using the ac15, the best you can do is plug out1 into the regular input (not the top boost) of the ac15, set all the tone controls to noon, set the gain so that its as clean as possible and set the master volume to taste. In the global menu of the axefx bypass poweramp modelling and cabinet modelling then pull up your ac15 preset and see how it sounds. It won't be perfect as there will be extra coloration from the ac15 preamp section, but it should give you an idea. Or, find someone who has a rack poweramp & a cab or any amp/cab/combo with an fx loop and plug into that.

In summary
[tube combo amp =/= axefx into frfr] therefore, these two setups can't be directly compared
[tube combo amp = axefx into poweramp and cab] therefore, these two setups can be directly compared
[tube combo amp mic'ed up at a gig and listened to via monitors or FOH speakers = axefx into frfr or listened to monitors or FOH speakers] therefore, these two setups can be directly compared
 
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After all, lots of guitarists prefer the sound of an unmic'd cab, but a lot of guitarists wouldn't base their opinion of the Axe FX's modeling on a comparison between the sound of an amp through an unmic'd cab vs. amp models through a mic'd cab. It's the comparison that the preference is based on that some people had an issue with.

How is it not relevant and how is that analogy at all applicable? He's saying a 600$ amp sitting in the room with him sounds better than a 3000$ modeler running a cab IR through an FRFR monitor.

But this is his use case. He's configured the $3000 modeller as best as he can, but the $600 amp still sounds better in this situation. It doesn't matter if you don't think the comparison is fair or reasonable, because THIS IS HIS USE CASE.

I'm pretty sure at this point that you've gotta be a troll. There's no other possible way that you've had this very simple idea explained to you so many ways by so many people that are trying to help and you still refuse to accept it. But I'll bite and try this one more time.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or App12, but I'm not a troll. I totally understand what you guys are saying, and I'm frustrated that you don't seem to understand that telling him his comparison is invalid because it's "apples and oranges" is not productive. His issue is that his $3000 modeller doesn't do as good a job in this situation as a $600 amp.

Personally, I think he can probably solve his problem without additional purchases (but I can't remember what FRFR hardware he's using), but ultimately his solution may be a Matrix amp and an open back cabinet.
 
But this is his use case. He's configured the $3000 modeller as best as he can, but the $600 amp still sounds better in this situation. It doesn't matter if you don't think the comparison is fair or reasonable, because THIS IS HIS USE CASE.



I'm not sure if you are referring to me or App12, but I'm not a troll. I totally understand what you guys are saying, and I'm frustrated that you don't seem to understand that telling him his comparison is invalid because it's "apples and oranges" is not productive. His issue is that his $3000 modeller doesn't do as good a job in this situation as a $600 amp.

Personally, I think he can probably solve his problem without additional purchases (but I can't remember what FRFR hardware he's using), but ultimately his solution may be a Matrix amp and an open back cabinet.
I have no issue with his use case, but he posted (either in this thread or another, I can't remember) that the accuracy of the AC15 model needed improvement because the model sounds nothing like the real amp... Using this flawed comparison mechanism. This shows a lack of understanding of the fundamental difference between the two.

If he is only ever playing in a scenario of using un-mic'd amps, then I'd say get a Matrix amp and a good general purpose cab and rock on. It's going to sound good to somebody... But most likely not everybody.
 
Then someone suggested he try & tonematch his AC15. I serious doubt he will like that, because that also will not sound like his AC15 cause it’ll essentially be the same thing, an IR thru FRFR and not amp in the room. Lol
 
But this is his use case. He's configured the $3000 modeller as best as he can, but the $600 amp still sounds better in this situation. It doesn't matter if you don't think the comparison is fair or reasonable, because THIS IS HIS USE CASE.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or App12, but I'm not a troll. I totally understand what you guys are saying, and I'm frustrated that you don't seem to understand that telling him his comparison is invalid because it's "apples and oranges" is not productive. His issue is that his $3000 modeller doesn't do as good a job in this situation as a $600 amp.

Personally, I think he can probably solve his problem without additional purchases (but I can't remember what FRFR hardware he's using), but ultimately his solution may be a Matrix amp and an open back cabinet.

As I mentioned in another thread, I showed up to band rehearsal with $2,500 worth of Axe and K12 and a new guitarist showed up with a $600 AC15. It was no comparison head to head so went and bought myself one. Within the context of the other instruments and with its onboard effects the Axe does offer some advantages but for just having fun playing I really love the real amp. One or two commented that they had the same issue with Vox sounds in the Axe II so it may just be this amp model. If so, hopefully it will be updated.


Like unix-guy said, app12 is saying that the axefx doesn't stand up to an ac15 because it doesn't sound/feel as good when played in the room or in a jam type situation. The ONLY productive thing that could happen here is for him to understand the difference between frfr/traditional cab and try out his axefx with a traditional cab since it seems like thats the type of tone/feel he wants. Everyone here is trying to help the guy, and he just seems to continually refuse to understand a pretty basic concept. I tend to agree with him, that an FRFR setup isn't going to feel like a poweramp & cab, and because of that I run my axe through a matrix and a smattering of cabs. We're trying to tell this guy that he & his buddies think the axefx doesn't hold a candle to a 1x12 combo because he's essentially using it wrong. With the understanding that there 'is no right and wrong,' in terms doing whatever you need/want to do to get the tone you want, if the tone you want is a guitar amp through a guitar cab and you're instead running a mic'ed cab through an FRFR...you're doing it wrong. So rather than let this guy spout off nonsense about how an axefx sounds terrible compared to a vox combo, we're trying to help him perform a more reasonable comparison and then make his judgement based off that. Personally, never played a vox other than the valvetronix stuff, so I have no idea how accurate the model is & don't particularly care. But I'm also not going to compare the MkIV, JCM800 & 6505 models against my buddy's real amps into marshall cabs by hooking up studio monitors and comparing the IR tone against the full stacks...that would be ridiculous and a pointless/fruitless comparison.

In other words, its not his 3000$ modeller that isn't doing as good a job as a 600$ amp, its him and his unreasonable adherence to an FRFR system. He's got an indy car on the track and he's driving Ms. Daisy, so its the car's fault that he's losing the race?
 
But this is his use case. He's configured the $3000 modeller as best as he can, but the $600 amp still sounds better in this situation. It doesn't matter if you don't think the comparison is fair or reasonable, because THIS IS HIS USE CASE.

I believe that's because he was under the impression that a standard cab and FRFR would sound the same, which they obviously won't. If he was settled on FRFR though, he likely wouldn't have asked me for power amp and cab recommendations.

I totally understand what you guys are saying, and I'm frustrated that you don't seem to understand that telling him his comparison is invalid because it's "apples and oranges" is not productive. His issue is that his $3000 modeller doesn't do as good a job in this situation as a $600 amp.

That's because he was expecting his modeler through an FRFR to sound like a standard $600 combo amp. I mean, you have a right to think chocolate cake tastes better than chocolate cake batter, but your opinion likely wouldn't be based on the presumption that they should taste the same. There's nothing wrong with preferring the sound of an unmic'd vs. mic'd cab, but if your opinion is built on the expectation that the mic'd cab should sound like the unmic'd cab, then you're not giving the $3000 modeler a fair shake.

Personally, I think he can probably solve his problem without additional purchases (but I can't remember what FRFR hardware he's using), but ultimately his solution may be a Matrix amp and an open back cabinet.

If he wants the Axe to sound like an unmic'd cab, a power amp and standard cab is basically the only solution.
 
That's because he was expecting his modeler through an FRFR to sound like a standard $600 combo amp. I mean, you have a right to think chocolate cake tastes better than chocolate cake batter, but your opinion likely wouldn't be based on the presumption that they should taste the same. There's nothing wrong with preferring the sound of an unmic'd vs. mic'd cab, but if your opinion is built on the expectation that the mic'd cab should sound like the unmic'd cab, then you're not giving the $3000 modeler a fair shake.

One final nit-pick here, but I think we're basically agreeing with each other from different points of view. He did say, "A $600 AC15 blows my 3,000 investment in an Axe and FRFR out of the room.", which to me implies that the complaint was that the AC15 sounded better. That's really what I've been latching on to, while everyone else has been focusing on sounding the "same". Does the definition of "best" have to be the physical amp? I don't think so, therefore "same" isn't a goal for me.

Now, App12 did say in an earlier post (and I had to go looking through the thread for this stuff):

“Good” for me would be to have the Axe sound as close to the actual amp being modeled.

But I have to wonder, if the AxeFX sounded better than the AC15 (and why couldn't it?), would App12 still want to "improve" it by making it sound more like the AC15? It seems to me like he defined "good" as "the same", because the the AC15 sounded better the way he's configured it.
 
One final nit-pick here, but I think we're basically agreeing with each other from different points of view. He did say, "A $600 AC15 blows my 3,000 investment in an Axe and FRFR out of the room.", which to me implies that the complaint was that the AC15 sounded better. That's really what I've been latching on to, while everyone else has been focusing on sounding the "same". Does the definition of "best" have to be the physical amp? I don't think so, therefore "same" isn't a goal for me.

Now, App12 did say in an earlier post (and I had to go looking through the thread for this stuff):

But I have to wonder, if the AxeFX sounded better than the AC15 (and why couldn't it?), would App12 still want to "improve" it by making it sound more like the AC15? It seems to me like he defined "good" as "the same", because the the AC15 sounded better the way he's configured it.

He wanted the Axe (through FRFR) to sound like an unmic'd AC15 and was sorely disappointed when it didn't. The bottom line is, if you want the Axe to sound like an unmic'd guitar cab, you need to compare apples to apples and use an unmic'd guitar cab.
 
Look, Cliff just did the "right" kind of comparison with a Fender (Deluxe Reverb) - 4 takes of the real amp via microphone and AXE3 through same cab and microphone (via Impulse Response). That's the test of amp model accuracy.

IIRC, all dials were set to noon on both amp and amp model. Go listen in AXEIII Recordings section. An excellent example of how you test amp modelling accuracy. No tone match needed; just an identical microphone and mic placement.

To All The Pundits

This is what test @App12 should try, to confirm the accuracy of the AC15 amp model. Then it might be possible to talk about IRs, cabs, etc.
 
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In summary
[tube combo amp =/= axefx into frfr] therefore, these two setups can't be directly compared
[tube combo amp = axefx into poweramp and cab] therefore, these two setups can be directly compared
[tube combo amp mic'ed up at a gig and listened to via monitors or FOH speakers = axefx into frfr or listened to monitors or FOH speakers] therefore, these two setups can be directly compared


I think this is the best summary of everything I've read so far. Simple-to-understand and to-the-point.
 
Very good summary.

Honestly, I had the opportunity to stay in a room with guys playing in different system (U2guitartutorials forum meeting)
Real amp with pedals
Amp modeler in real amp
Axe FX + FOH
HD500 + FOH
PC rig with VST + FOH
...

When the guy know what to do with his rig, and of course how to play guitar, it all sound fantastic at the end for the people listening
(my opinion)
 
Interesting discussion, to a point. I've been going direct (excuse me, FRFR) most of the time since about 1989 when I got a Rockman XPR. I'll tell you what, I'll setup an A/B box with a DRRI and OCD on "A" and the Axe-III thru a CLR cab (placed same as the amp) on "B", have you stand with them at your back by your feet and betcha won't be able to tell which is which.
 
Interesting discussion, to a point. I've been going direct (excuse me, FRFR) most of the time since about 1989 when I got a Rockman XPR. I'll tell you what, I'll setup an A/B box with a DRRI and OCD on "A" and the Axe-III thru a CLR cab (placed same as the amp) on "B", have you stand with them at your back by your feet and betcha won't be able to tell which is which.
Can I move 2 feet to either side? :)
 
Once you do you'll prefer FRFR because it still sounds just as good. Or unless we place more distance to allow for more dispersion. And I'm not interested in discussing beaming vs dispersion, that wasn't my point.
 
Once you do you'll prefer FRFR because it still sounds just as good. Or unless we place more distance to allow for more dispersion. And I'm not interested in discussing beaming vs dispersion, that wasn't my point.
I already do, and have for several years... Don't need to be converted ;)

But it isn't the same sound, and claiming otherwise is a false claim. If I were intimately familiar with that amp (i'm not) I'm pretty sure I could tell the sound from the cabinet versus the FRFR reproducing the sound of the same cab mic'd up.

Again, I'm not saying it's bad in any way... But it isn't the same.
 
I already do, and have for several years... Don't need to be converted ;) I was referring to your comment about moving to the side 2 feet. I know you are using FRFR and I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone. We all have to use what sounds good to us.

But it isn't the same sound, and claiming otherwise is a false claim. If I were intimately familiar with that amp (i'm not) I'm pretty sure I could tell the sound from the cabinet versus the FRFR reproducing the sound of the same cab mic'd up. Not a false claim. I've been on stage where the other guitarist was using a Fender combo and I dialed up one of my presets, we were both were amazed how close they were. Maybe you could tell the difference, maybe you couldn't. IMHO it's quite insignificant.

Again, I'm not saying it's bad in any way... Didn't think you were But it isn't the same. Can a CLR compete with a 4x12? No, so in that case I'll give it to you - it's not the same. But again, that's not my point. My point is can FRFR sound like amp in the room... Yes.
 
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