Amp in a Room vs Studio Recorded Tones

unix-guy said:
Sorry Ron, this is just not correct. The signal chain is modeling a close-mic'd speaker into a mic preamp. This is a very different sound.
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I stand corrected. But to me, I can't tell the difference in that sound. Some people say they can. I think that's hogwash.
 
Ron_R said:
I stand corrected. But to me, I can't tell the difference in that sound. Some people say they can. I think that's hogwash.
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Have you played much with an amp and cab that is not mic'd? There's definitely a difference. I think most experienced guitarists can tell the difference.
 
There are actually some far field Ir’s as well as captures from the back side of the cabinet etc. not exactly the same as being in the physical room, but also means you don’t only have the sound of a mic right against the speaker cone

I’ve often dialed in some blends with room mics or a mic on the back of the cab, just adds a bit of spice to the mix, so to speak
 
It's funny being told something isn't possible or you are wrong even though you've achieved and are doing what they tell you isn't possible lol.

I stopped bothering to argue and convince. I've dialed in my FRFR to emulate exactly a live amp/cab unmic'd and it does it perfectly.
 
Severed said:
It's funny being told something isn't possible or you are wrong even though you've achieved and are doing what they tell you isn't possible lol.

I stopped bothering to argue and convince. I've dialed in my FRFR to emulate exactly a live amp/cab unmic'd and it does it perfectly.
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I'm not here to argue. If you like it, that's totally fine.

But how can you make a mic'd cab not sound like a mic'd cab? We're talking about physics, here.

If you can truly do this, many people here will want to know!
 
unix-guy said:
Sorry Ron, this is just not correct. The signal chain is modeling a close-mic'd speaker into a mic preamp. This is a very different sound.
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I'm just going to play devil's advocate here for the sake of conversation:

If you put your face 3 inches from the FRFR, it's the sound of the captured guitar speaker from about the same location (assuming it's a close mic'd IR).
If you put your face 3 inches from the Guitar Cab, same sound.

So if both Cab and FRFR have the same(ish) sound at 3", why can't the FRFR create the 'amp in the room' sound, but the Guitar Cab can?
What is it about walking 5-10 feet away from either 'box' that they now sound different?

Part of that answer is directivity. And part of the answer is that most FRFR do not push the same SPL/Air.
I'm sure there is plenty more to that answer, but I agree with the others that state they can get the same amp in the room from a FRFR. I feel like I do it every night.
 
BBN said:
If you put your face 3 inches from the FRFR, it's the sound of the captured guitar speaker from about the same location (assuming it's a close mic'd IR).
If you put your face 3 inches from the Guitar Cab, same sound.
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Nope! The sound from the FRFR came through a mic and preamp before getting to your ear... Because that is how an IR is captured.
 
unix-guy said:
Nope! The sound from the FRFR came through a mic and preamp before getting to your ear... Because that is how an IR is captured.
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Your assuming however that the mic and preamp are imparting a tonal coloration of the measurement. Now in some cases that is correct, and its done on purpose because not only do we want an IR of a certain speaker, but we also want the coloration of a bunch of different famous mics. However, you can also use things like a very linear/transparent power amp, neutral mic, etc, to take a lot of the coloration out of the IR, basically make it just the speaker. Also, lets not forgot that not every guitar speaker has a ton of coloration. There are some guitar speakers that are pretty much as flat, over a given range, as any PA speaker.

I think that with the right IR, some high and low cuts, and the right FRFR speaker, say a Xitone with a single 12", you can get a sound pretty darn close to a 1x12 sealed cab, with a flatter guitar speaker. Its not going to be exact, but I for one don't think I could tell it apart.
 
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I never understood the amp in room vs FRFR. Had both. No one could tell blind folded. Each required different preset adjustments. Both sounded great when cranked. Both could get muddy. Both changed in different rooms. Both sounded killer because I'm using a fn AxeFx!
 
lqdsnddist said:
Your assuming however that the mic and preamp are imparting a tonal coloration of the measurement. Now in some cases that is correct, and its done on purpose because not only do we want an IR of a certain speaker, but we also want the coloration of a bunch of different famous mics. However, you can also use things like a very linear/transparent power amp, neutral mic, etc, to take a lot of the coloration out of the IR, basically make it just the speaker. Also, lets not forgot that not every guitar speaker has a ton of coloration. There are some guitar speakers that are pretty much as flat, over a given range, as any PA speaker.

I think that with the right IR, some high and low cuts, and the right FRFR speaker, say a Xitone with a single 12", you can get a sound pretty darn close to a 1x12 sealed cab, with a flatter guitar speaker. Its not going to be exact, but I for one don't think I could tell it apart.
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I agree... But I'm willing to bet few if any users are doing that. I've certainly not heard of many.

And I think that, in general, discussions here are not referencing that type of scenario.
 
Just depends what one likes and what one plays...

I could certainly tell my old checkerboard 4x12 Marshall cab apart from my clr with my back to them. One 12” frfr speaker isn’t going to sound like 4 12” speakers.... no getting around that really, though it does perhaps come down to feeling vs hearing. A 4x12 flaps my trouser leg better lol

Now if we are talking something like my 68 Princeton or DRRI which I used to have, with a 1x10 and 1x12, played st modest volume, and my clr, which spreads sound quite nicely in a smaller bedroom to where it’s not too different than an open back cabinet, then no. I can’t tell them apart, and actually spent some time doing just that.

The axe amp model, reverb, and right IR nailed the sound and feel of the amps, uncannily so.

I’m sure in a different room and at different volumes differences might of been greater, but smaller combo vs clr with a clean amp, pretty darn close
 
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unix-guy said:
Have you played much with an amp and cab that is not mic'd? There's definitely a difference. I think most experienced guitarists can tell the difference.
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Indeed I have. For many years. And played through them even since I got the Axe Fx II. Been playing for 27 years, but am not a working musician. I personally think people who are stuck on the "amp in the room" business is because of an internal bias they have which has nothing to so with what their ears are actually hearing. Sorry.
 
Ultimately sound is sound, Im not sure why there is insistence that sound waves an ear hears cant be emulated no matter what mic preamp frfr combo is producing it. Now there may not be the same rush of air, oomph, perhaps percussiveness.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Your assuming however that the mic and preamp are imparting a tonal coloration of the measurement. Now in some cases that is correct, and its done on purpose because not only do we want an IR of a certain speaker, but we also want the coloration of a bunch of different famous mics. However, you can also use things like a very linear/transparent power amp, neutral mic, etc, to take a lot of the coloration out of the IR, basically make it just the speaker.
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What's not being accounted for is the coloration imparted by the mic(s) position.
 
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Again, I'm just going to poke here a little bit here, to add to the conversation:

So everyone here agrees to some degree that the mic and preamp add some coloration (depending on how transparent the mic and/or preamp are).
So someone now explain why 'coloration' = not amp in the room?

And what about people that are using IRs with a Guitar Cab (I know guitar cabs with the EV12L were a popular one used with an IR).
So are they not getting 'amp in the room' because they're using an IR with coloration?

And what about Hybrid solutions like XiTone where you can (using the built in DSP) disable the tweeter and use the woofer without an IR, like a Guitar Cab. What are those people getting? Amp in the room or not?

Some other discussion on the topic of cabs: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/no-more-real-cabs-for-me.137029/
 
BBN said:
So someone now explain why 'coloration' = not amp in the room?
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Amp in the room denotes direct and accurate (unfiltered) experience with a real cab in an actual room. If you're running IR's through a real cab, yes, you are technically listening to an 'amp in the room', however if amps and cabs were art, it would be about as much a direct and accurate representation as viewing the Mona Lisa through rose colored glasses. While you might like the effect, it doesn't conform to common usage.
 
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