About the Axe-Fx II XL

well its a bummer not to have the benefit of the lower noise/distortion from the new op-amp, as its a challenge at times fighting the noise floor, as its quite evident the degradation of tone to at least some extent using a gate...
A quieter op-amp won't help you there. The noise coming from your guitar is way louder than the noise coming from the Axe itself. To see it for yourself, back off the gate until you hear the noise. Now unplug your guitar, and watch the noise disappear. It's not coming from the Axe.
 
Yes I'm going to chime in and tell you ITS HARD TO DO...

It essentially boils down to needing twice the current DSP horsepower or utilizing half the current horsepower, wasting the other half to simply support spillover. There's only certain edge simple cases where you could support with less cpu usage...Its the old TANSTAFL principle...There ain't no such thing as a free lunch...

Yeah, I've heard that before, but I find it real, real hard to believe that Strymon and Line 6 and Eventide are all doubling the amount of processing power just for spillover. And it's extremely hard to believe that solution is the only way to solve the problem. It's just not being prioritized.
 
Yeah, I've heard that before, but I find it real, real hard to believe that Strymon and Line 6 and Eventide are all doubling the amount of processing power just for spillover.
That's kind of how it works, though. Digitech sold add-on kits for some of their products that allowed delay and reverb spillover. The kit consisted of a set of instructions and a second processor. One way or another, you have to reserve space for the effect you're spilling over, robbing the next preset of memory and CPU horsepower.
 
alright, Rex, break my cozy little bubble of ignorance, why don't you? :encouragement: still, unequal capacity for block building may prove a problem for the Axe-Fx II keeping up w/ the XL preset wise and lets NOT forget the "Secret Sauce"!!
 
alright, Rex, break my cozy little bubble of ignorance, why don't you? :encouragement: still, unequal capacity for block building may prove a problem for the Axe-Fx II keeping up w/ the XL preset wise and lets NOT forget the "Secret Sauce"!!
I'll gloat one of these days, after my own bubble of ignorance resolves itself. :)

Agreed: there will be XL presets that don't play well (at all) in the II.
 
That's kind of how it works, though. Digitech sold add-on kits for some of their products that allowed delay and reverb spillover. The kit consisted of a set of instructions and a second processor. One way or another, you have to reserve space for the effect you're spilling over, robbing the next preset of memory and CPU horsepower.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. I mean, of course, I'm sure what you're saying is correct, but I don't believe that's the only way to achieve results. At least, not for something that's essentially a computer (as opposed to a stompbox that lacks things like RAM, etc).

This argument is inconsistent for a number of reasons. First of all, the nature of "spillover" is such that it deals with sounds that have already happened as opposed to processing in real-time sounds that are currently happening. The idea that implementing proper spillover would unreasonably increase the AxeFX's real-time processing load doesn't make sense since the concept of "spillover" does not actually involve adding effects to notes as they are happening, but rather allowing the effects already added to previous notes to run their course.

Second, regardless of the first point, real spillover would clearly not require twice the processing power present in the entire device. That much should be obvious to anyone that stops to think about it for a second. The AxeFX can process a LOT of complex delay/reverb information. We already have access to 5 delays (if you count Megatap and Multi delays) and 2 reverbs per preset. It's potentially twice that many depending on whether or not the AxeFX processes X/Y states in parallel (IIRC, it does). So, even if Fractal implemented spillover by simply splitting your signal and mirroring your spacial FX blocks behind the scenes on hidden, global-style "Delay 3" and "Reverb 3" blocks and activated those blocks whenever a patch change is sent (which would potentially be the laziest, least-efficient way to go about this), you STILL wouldn't need a separate DSP's-worth of power to do it. Such a setup would only require an additional amount of processing power comparable to the processing power eaten up by the delays and 'verbs in any given preset ONLY. Would there be limits to this? Yes. Could you run all the spacial FX at once in a preset and ALSO have this spillover? Probably not, but similar limitations already exist (want a Looper with Undo, then you'll have to deal with shorter loops). Would it work? Given the fact that this method is premised off of functionality we already use all the time, I don't see why not.

Here's another idea. What about the Looper? How does that work? It seems to involve the act of recording short pieces of already-processed audio without having to require a separate DSP framework. Well, what if you take that concept, shrink it down to couple seconds (no spillover is going to be 15 seconds long), make it into an internal system process, and call it a "system spillover buffer". It just sits in the background at the end of your chain recording the last 5 seconds (or whatever) of your sound, then it dumps that to the main outputs when a patch change request is sent. Again, will that take up some system resources? Yes. Will it take up enough to be completely impractical? Well, the Looper doesn't. It wouldn't be perfect, but I would prefer "less perfect" to "total PITA, if available at all".

Also, Digitech sold add-ons that allowed an aftermarket co-processor to enable spillover on one of their products? That's great...CAN FRACTAL!?

I obviously don't know the ins-and-outs of the AxeFX platform. My point in writing this is not to say that these are necessarily the best solutions to the problem, just that they are examples of things that COULD be done that would have their limitations, but still be a lot more useful than the current complicated, messy, half-assed thing we have now. To be honest, I suspect the real reason Fractal has only made marginal gains on this problem over the YEARS people have been complaining about it is because they don't care. It's just not a priority. They have their overdrive-simulation pissing match with Kemper to worry about. "Never mind the fact that our product lacks basic, essential functionality found in almost every other FX processor currently on the market, we gotta squeeze out that extra 4% of overdrive realism to maintain market share." Fine. Whatever.

Proper spillover - It's important. Just ask any of the professional guitarists I describe the problem to who respond, "uh uh, deal breaker" then proceed to write off the AxeFX completely. Honestly, if there was another company that had a product remotely comparable to the AxeFX, I'd bail on Fractal in a second. But there isn't, so here we are. I'll just continue pissing my life away at 4am trying to ensure the 30-some-odd patches I'm creating for this project alone have all their spacial effects sync'd in a perfectly linear fashion.
 
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it deals with sounds that have already happened as opposed to processing in real-time sounds that are currently happening....the concept of "spillover" does not actually involve adding effects to notes as they are happening, but rather allowing the effects already added to previous notes to run their course.

they run their course in the current delay block which is an active process. just because you played the note from the guitar doesn't mean the axe isn't "working" to make it repeat.

it's actively making it repeat.
 
they run their course in the current delay block which is an active process. just because you played the note from the guitar doesn't mean the axe isn't "working" to make it repeat.

it's actively making it repeat.

Just thinking out loud here... say you have a delay of 350 ms. Imagine a process that is recording the output of that delay block all the time. It only needs to keep the last 350 ms, and possibly not even at full resolution. When a patch change is initiated, the recording is triggered like a sample every 350 ms at decreasing volumes in line with the delay decay. That has to use less resources than the whole axe.

Of course that example is only useful for a mono delay, but the principal can be extended. Or not... it is late and I might look at this idea tomorrow and think it is daft. I'm sure Cliff has spent plenty of time thinking about workarounds.
 
Just thinking out loud here... say you have a delay of 350 ms. Imagine a process that is recording the output of that delay block all the time. It only needs to keep the last 350 ms, and possibly not even at full resolution. When a patch change is initiated, the recording is triggered like a sample every 350 ms at decreasing volumes in line with the delay decay. That has to use less resources than the whole axe.

That's not entirely the case.
Delay repeats are not (always) just repeats at a lesser volume level. They may be modulated, or EQ'd etc.
 
Yeah, I've heard that before, but I find it real, real hard to believe that Strymon and Line 6 and Eventide are all doubling the amount of processing power just for spillover. And it's extremely hard to believe that solution is the only way to solve the problem. It's just not being prioritized.

Those are processors dealing only with effects. On the Axe-Fx however, when switching presets, stuff such as Amps and Cabs is switched too, making it all far more complicated.

Which doesn't mean that I don't agree that spillover improvement in some way would be very welcome.

In the meantime scenes are a good alternative if spillover is a priority. And there are other tricks, such as putting Delay/Reverb always after Amp blocks, preferably in parallel rows, and using Input Gain instead of Mix/Level to dial in the effects level (normalizing spillover level).
 
How many people in this thread that think its easy to implement spillover have actually designed the AxeFx?

No one is saying it's easy, just that it's not nearly as hopeless as people try to paint it.

My point about real-time processing is this: I'm sure it does take CPU power to make repeats, but my background in computers leads me to think that making the repeats (or any of the "spacial-ness" of the spacial FX) is not where the processor is doing all the heavy-lifting. I could be wrong, of course, but I suspect it's not all that difficult for a processor to say "ok, repeat this signal X times. shave off X dB and subtract X amount of this frequency range every time". What IS difficult is calculating all of that in real-time as signals are passing through the unit. With spillover, the calculation part should already be completed. Algorithms have already determined the WHAT and the HOW, I would think the "following through" is likely the easy part for the DSP.

Although, I could see the AxeFX working such that the WHAT and HOW are processed as a function of the "following through", if you can follow me there. Still, that doesn't mean it couldn't use the "spillover buffer" concept I and Rook mentioned.

Point being, it's possible to make the system better, and this claim that you'd need to effectively double the processing power of the Axe to get decent spillover is clearly not correct for a number of reasons. I'm just hoping that if enough of us complain about it loudly, something will actually be done about it.
 
No one is saying it's easy, just that it's not nearly as hopeless as people try to paint it.

...

Point being, it's possible to make the system better, and this claim that you'd need to effectively double the processing power of the Axe to get decent spillover is clearly not correct for a number of reasons. ...
I'm with you on that. I've been asking for "real" spillover from back in the Ultra wish-list days, several years ago.

However, I have come to terms with the current situation. I consider the Fractal Axe-FX (all gens) to be the only pro effects unit that does not have spillover, period (though it has a clunky workaround to diminish the impact of not having spillover).

Still, for me, the flexibility and quality of the tones I get out of my Ultra make me stick with it.

If there was an Axe-FX III with real spillover(*), I would be all over it. In my mind, it might be implemented by adding two reserved non-user-accessible blocks (one for reverb, one for delay) that are always in the chain, always pre-filled with the user's verb and delay settings for a selected preset, and always ready to spillover when switching to a new preset (after the spillover blocks have decayed to a predetermined threshold, flush them and fill them with the new preset's settings, i.e. arm then for the next preset switch). If that requires an additional processor (surely smaller/simpler for just verb and delay), then so be it... the Axe-FX III would have two tigersharks and an additional spillover processor. End of story, completely transparent to user, and available at the touch of a button on a preset basis.

(*) And while they're at it, they could implement better modifier curve control - the rigidity of the current gen I and II curves have brought pain since their introduction... they work for straight lines and simple curves, but fail miserably on any complex control requirements (like shelf, peak, or any other type).
 
It's probably less CPU to make an amp block shape the incoming signal to sound like a fender etc than for a spatial effect to constantly change the sound in real time as it decays or modulates etc.
 
First of all, the nature of "spillover" is such that it deals with sounds that have already happened as opposed to processing in real-time sounds that are currently happening.
That's a misconception. It doesn't matter that spillover involves sounds that have already been played. It's still using the delay or reverb algorithm to process the sound in real time, and that takes the full horsepower that the effect demands.


The idea that implementing proper spillover would unreasonably increase the AxeFX's real-time processing load doesn't make sense since the concept of "spillover" does not actually involve adding effects to notes as they are happening, but rather allowing the effects already added to previous notes to run their course.
By that logic, delay and reverb shouldn't require any CPU at all, because all those effects ever do is process sound that's already been played, :)


Second, regardless of the first point, real spillover would clearly not require twice the processing power present in the entire device. That much should be obvious to anyone that stops to think about it for a second. The AxeFX can process a LOT of complex delay/reverb information. We already have access to 5 delays (if you count Megatap and Multi delays) and 2 reverbs per preset.
You're right. It doesn't take the whole processor to do spillover. But it does require the spilled-over effects to be duplicated in the next preset. If you do that globally, you have to reserve enough horsepower to run five of the most resource-intensive effects. That takes away a huge percentage of the available CPU. That's CPU that you can never use for anything else, even when you're not using spillover. The algorithm you wrote that was using 65% CPU is now using 110% CPU, and that means crash time unless you strip away parts of your preset.

The other alternative is to only use the extra resources when spillover is turned on. That would avoid the forever hit to resources. But that's a bookkeeping nightmare. If you're running two spilled-over reverbs, you have to make sure you don't switch to any presets that use more than about 60% CPU, or you'll crash the box.

The Axe actually does a modified version of this. But you have to explicitly add the spilled-over effects to the next preset, so you can see them. They're not hidden, and you can easily account for the resources they consume. And they only consume resources when you decide they will. It's a bit more cumbersome, but it's way more efficient.
 
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That's not entirely the case.
Delay repeats are not (always) just repeats at a lesser volume level. They may be modulated, or EQ'd etc.

Oh, for sure. I'm just thinking of the most common case a gigging guitarist wants spillover, and that is something like transitioning from a lead sound with a couple of simple repeats mixed in subtly to a straight rhythm or clean sound. It is a hack, just one I thought might be good enough most of the time for what I imagine would be a pretty minimal CPU hit.

Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. I don't pretend to be any kind of expert.
 
Real spillover requires exactly twice the horsepower to do properly. The basic technique is you are always running two presets, the current and previous. When you switch presets the current becomes the previous and the new becomes the current using a ping-pong approach. The previous preset runs across program changes and has it's input muted at the point of program change.

If a processor is only doing one or two things then this is simple if you have the horsepower. Otherwise it's a nightmare. A delay pedal or reverb pedal has the luxury of only doing one thing so it can run two instances and ping-pong between them.

I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for an Axe-Fx with four TigerSHARCs in it. You'd be looking at $4-5K. Pros that insist on true spillover simply use two units. When they switch to the new preset the input to the one unit is muted and the other unmuted. You can orchestrate all this with MIDI CCs.

The bottom line is that it costs money and to implement properly is not economically viable. For those who can afford it using two units is the simple solution. For those who can't an outboard reverb or delay may be adequate.

Scenes were developed to address this but obviously scenes are limited in their capabilities. For most users scenes and/or the current spillover paradigm is sufficient. If those do not meet your demands then you'll have to look at other solutions. Engineering is all about choices and compromise and we feel we've made the best choices and compromises in regard to cost and performance.
 
Real spillover requires exactly twice the horsepower to do properly. The basic technique is you are always running two presets, the current and previous. When you switch presets the current becomes the previous and the new becomes the current using a ping-pong approach. The previous preset runs across program changes and has it's input muted at the point of program change.

If a processor is only doing one or two things then this is simple if you have the horsepower. Otherwise it's a nightmare. A delay pedal or reverb pedal has the luxury of only doing one thing so it can run two instances and ping-pong between them.

I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for an Axe-Fx with four TigerSHARCs in it. You'd be looking at $4-5K. Pros that insist on true spillover simply use two units. When they switch to the new preset the input to the one unit is muted and the other unmuted. You can orchestrate all this with MIDI CCs.

The bottom line is that it costs money and to implement properly is not economically viable. For those who can afford it using two units is the simple solution. For those who can't an outboard reverb or delay may be adequate.

Scenes were developed to address this but obviously scenes are limited in their capabilities. For most users scenes and/or the current spillover paradigm is sufficient. If those do not meet your demands then you'll have to look at other solutions. Engineering is all about choices and compromise and we feel we've made the best choices and compromises in regard to cost and performance.

+1 this … of course.
 
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