Amp Shootout: Matrix GT800FX vs. VHT 2/90/2

The best power amp I ever heard with the Axe (Gen 1 of course), was during my first
couple months with my old Standard. I played it thru everything I could get my hands
on. My bass player has a massive old bass tube head called a Mesa Strategy 500.
3 rack spaces, 8 power tubes, 200 watts per side, and it had to weigh close to 100 lbs!.
But the sound! Massive, rolling, enveloping, shaking the walls on volume '1'.
You can still buy old Mesa tube bass heads on the Bay fairly cheap.
Mesa 3:95, Mesa Strategy 400, Mesa Strategy 500. This 500 was the best
sound I've ever heard an Axe make.
 
That raises two questions:
Is the GT800 using a switching power supply?
Is there a discernible difference for amplifying guitar?

Curious now...

I can't say that for sure. In my opinion, the greatest "bang for your buck" in the fidelity department with guitar amplification will be a smooth and uncolored midrange (say 500-5kHz). Artifacts in other frequency ranges are probably easier to tame (low-passing out a ratty top end, correcting a mid-bass hump, etc.) or even to simply work with while designing patches.

Sonically theres no difference between a torroidal transformer and a switch mode PSU, as long as the SM is designed correctly. Power is power - simple, as long as its there when needed.

People get confused with the Digital tag. There is a hugh difference between digital amplification (that Class D amps get tagged with) and digital PSUs (that switch mode PSUs get tagged with). Basically as long as the amplification device is running in class A/B you woint here a difference what the PSU is.

Unfortunately MOST Class D amps (and class G come to that) have switch mode PSUs, and MOST Class A/B amps are torroidal - hence the confuson. the Matrix however, is class A/B and used a Switch mode PSU.

There's no confusion here. You may be right that there is no audible difference when a SM PSU is designed correctly and implemented into a class A/B design - but I'm not impressed with the technology yet. They are prone to excessive noise and even at switching frequencies of 1 MHz, I believe it is the dead time that introduces extra harmonic distortion into the signal. I haven't had the opportunity to compare my DCM1000 to a DCM1000L (would love to do so), but my expectation is that the DCM1000 will handily beat it in noise floor and sound quality, at the expense of a 500% increase or so in weight. I'll admit here that I am not an electrical engineer, but I am an engineer and audio enthusiast with a lay understanding of amplifier design and performance.

With acknowledgement that these results are nearly a decade old, some summaries of linear vs. switching-mode power amplifiers, tested by Genelec:
http://www.genelec.com/documents/publications/aes112th.pdf

I can't comment on the Matrix at all, and I assume for the price tag that it is a good amplifier with quality components and a switch-mode PSU that is power-factor corrected, well-shielded, etc. It may very well be on par with linear amplifiers taking into account improvements in SM PSU technology, but I haven't seen any solid measurements or listening tests (recorded music is best) to confirm this.

Well, theoretically yes, they are the same, but in reality there is a bit of difference in how they behave. An SMPS can regulate its supply voltage at nominal no matter what the load. A linear power supply's voltage will dip when load gets heavy because it has no feedback loop like the SMPS. The voltage dip is equivalent to the "sag" parameter in your Axe-Fx. It equals increased THD as the output signal clips due to the supply rails dipping.

Hence the overbuilt transformers and excess power ratings sought after by those who want high fidelity at high volumes.

I haven't made the decision yet, but have been tempted by the Carvin DCM2000L. I suspect that for my application the thing will have enough headroom that I won't experience clipping of any kind. I'm happy with my sound, but wouldn't mind the reduced weight and heat of this amp vs. the Mesa 2:90 I have now. I have as much romance with tubes as the next guy, except when I'm carrying them or buying replacements. ;)

What is your speaker impedance configuration (e.g. 2x 8ohms)? For most purposes, the DCM2000L is quite likely overkill. I have 700W bridged into 8 ohms with the DCM1000, or I can do 1000W bridged into 4 ohms or 225x2 at 8 ohms. Any of those numbers makes a LOT of stage volume with plenty of headroom left.

I've been yelled at by venue sound guys with that very same 700W into one Atomic cab for having too much stage noise. :)

It is in the 'ideal' neighborhood because it does not react under the fingers like a hifi, linear power amp.
It seems to 'bounce' and compress with pick pressure like a tube amp. In my early experiments with
the Axe, I once tried it thru a $3000 audiophile solid state power amp. It sounded unbearably stiff
and hard. The Matrix reacts better to guitar-y frequencies than any S/S amp I've yet heard.

I'd certainly like to try one of these out, but aren't you admitting that it "does something" that a reference model amplifier does not, ergo, it has introduced some type of non-linearity that you find pleasing in concert with the Axe-Fx modeling? I'm not saying that's not a good thing. I'm just trying to be clear.

BTW, are you running firmware 11.0 yet? I wonder if the new improvements in non-linear component behavior that Cliff has modeled might deliver more "mojo" through said "stiff" hi-fi amp for you.

I'd love to try one of these Matrix amps in my hi-fi at home - the Carvin DCM1000 doesn't hold a candle to my trusty Rotel class A/B stereo amp, but it's not terrible.
 
So...



Guitar-user-friendly ----------------------------------------------------------- Hi-fi

VHT---------------------------------Matrix ------------------------------- Hi end S/S
 
The Matrix is probably more "user-friendly" than a VHT for a guitarist using a modeler, simply due to the elimination of tube maintenance and weight.
 
I'd certainly like to try one of these out, but aren't you admitting that it "does something" that a reference model amplifier does not, ergo, it has introduced some type of non-linearity that you find pleasing in concert with the Axe-Fx modeling? I'm not saying that's not a good thing. I'm just trying to be clear.
[/QUOTE]

Well yes. That was kind of the point of the GTs development. its original incarnation, the XT is linear - and was designed to drive high freq drivers in line arrays. The GT evolved from that - incorporating /P impedance changes, changes to the HF damping, and also to other aspects that effect the low end. It is pretty linear in EQ for guitar freqs, but the low end and high end you'd want for recorded music has been altered to suit guitar.

What your left with is a great amp, that has been tweeked AWAY from the perfect, totally linear, fast response amp you'd want for PA use - toward one thats flat in the freq range that matters to us, but has its high end and low end tweeked to sound sweet to us - along with a slower, bouncier response that we like. if you want the flat amp get the XT800, if you want the one tweeked for guitar use, get the GT.
 
What is your speaker impedance configuration (e.g. 2x 8ohms)? For most purposes, the DCM2000L is quite likely overkill. I have 700W bridged into 8 ohms with the DCM1000, or I can do 1000W bridged into 4 ohms or 225x2 at 8 ohms. Any of those numbers makes a LOT of stage volume with plenty of headroom left.

I run two 1 x12 8 ohm cabs. The DCM2000L is overkill, but I do like to have enough headroom that the amp is nowhere close to non-linear. It may be that the input power requirements for that amp would be a reason to choose something less powerful.
 
I'll agree the exchange rate thing sucks big time at the moment, not just for you guys but for companies looking to expand their territories.

Just wait a bit longer. The Euro is in serious trouble. An increasing number of countries needing bailouts. Right now, there's a race to see which will collapse first; the Euro or the USD. :)
 
What your left with is a great amp, that has been tweeked AWAY from the perfect, totally linear, fast response amp you'd want for PA use - toward one thats flat in the freq range that matters to us,
Just who are the people you refer to when you say, "us?" And how can you be so certain that you are accurately representing their preferences?

but has its high end and low end tweeked to sound sweet to us
There's that "us" again. FYI, the "sound sweet" part is what you do with the Axe-Fx. In order to be successful at that, you really need a neutral amplification system so you hear exactly what is coming out of the Axe, with no attempt to "sweeten" the sound in the amplifier.
 
I run two 1 x12 8 ohm cabs. The DCM2000L is overkill, but I do like to have enough headroom that the amp is nowhere close to non-linear. It may be that the input power requirements for that amp would be a reason to choose something less powerful.

Actually, you´d be better off using the DCM1540L, it puts out 475W @ 8 ohms per side, as opposed to the DCM2000L, which gives 400W @ 8 ohms /side. With the 2000L, you achieve maximum power per side @ 2 ohms - with the 1540L, @ 4 ohms.

Source : http://www.carvinworld.com/manuals/dcml_sales_sheet.pdf
 
I'd certainly like to try one of these out, but aren't you admitting that it "does something" that a reference model amplifier does not, ergo, it has introduced some type of non-linearity that you find pleasing in concert with the Axe-Fx modeling? I'm not saying that's not a good thing. I'm just trying to be clear.
[/QUOTE]

Well yes. That was kind of the point of the GTs development. its original incarnation, the XT is linear - and was designed to drive high freq drivers in line arrays. The GT evolved from that - incorporating /P impedance changes, changes to the HF damping, and also to other aspects that effect the low end. It is pretty linear in EQ for guitar freqs, but the low end and high end you'd want for recorded music has been altered to suit guitar.

What your left with is a great amp, that has been tweeked AWAY from the perfect, totally linear, fast response amp you'd want for PA use - toward one thats flat in the freq range that matters to us, but has its high end and low end tweeked to sound sweet to us - along with a slower, bouncier response that we like. if you want the flat amp get the XT800, if you want the one tweeked for guitar use, get the GT.
 
If you want to know what is going on financially in this world read this site.
It looks like the USD is at loosing hand. Sorry
And Greece is only 7% of our European economy

English | LEAP 2020
 
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Ha... thanks DADA 8),

I don't want to overwhelm Claxor with A/B parties but if he is up to it maybe we can set up a time that will work and benefit users with useful info.

Tech talk will only get you so far and it is good to have the data but you still need to know the end result and it would help to be able to put a bang for the buck or an over the top solution no mater the cost ;).

It would be nice to get a Matrix that says the proper name on the front and/or a Matrix t-shirt after all this... (I'm just sayin') ;)
 
If you want to know what is going on financially in this world read this site.
It looks like the USD is at loosing hand. Sorry
And Greece is only 7% of our European economy

English | LEAP 2020

You forgot Spain, Portugal and Ireland. How long will France and Germany pay their bills before they walk away from the Euro?
I think it'll go down like this: 1st-the AxefxII is released
2nd-The Euro falls apart
3rd-The USD collapses
4th-The AxefxII rises as the new global currency being valued more per ounce than gold bullion. :)

Ok, now back on topic...sorry. :)
 
Actually, you´d be better off using the DCM1540L, it puts out 475W @ 8 ohms per side, as opposed to the DCM2000L, which gives 400W @ 8 ohms /side. With the 2000L, you achieve maximum power per side @ 2 ohms - with the 1540L, @ 4 ohms.

Source : http://www.carvinworld.com/manuals/dcml_sales_sheet.pdf

THIS. And it weighs less and allows you to have more output channels if you need. ;)

Unless you can run the two cabs in parallel (i.e. they have a "daisy chain" output which would reduce the load to 4ohms) in which case I'd go with the DCM1000L in mono. Again, less weight and cost. But for driving two 8 ohm loads the 1540L is all you need.

Note the misprint on the wattage on the DCM1000L in the link iggypop provided... :roll
 
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FWIW the Carvin power supply's switching frequency is a miserable 130 KHz compared to the 1 MHz of the Matrix amp. That's a valid design change for the better, not that everything else designed around the power section is necessarily better or worse. But a higher frequency means less dead time from the MOSFET section, which should translate into smoother performance.
 
THIS. And it weighs less and allows you to have more output channels if you need. ;)

Unless you can run the two cabs in parallel (i.e. they have a "daisy chain" output which would reduce the load to 4ohms) in which case I'd go with the DCM1000L in mono. Again, less weight and cost. But for driving two 8 ohm loads the 1540L is all you need.

Note the misprint on the wattage on the DCM1000L in the link iggypop provided... :roll
Regarding weight, it seems both weigh 14 lbs?
 
It would be nice if Mark Day could chime in too, regarding his use of the 1540L... After he ditched his Art SLA-2.
 
You forgot Spain, Portugal and Ireland. How long will France and Germany pay their bills before they walk away from the Euro?
I think it'll go down like this: 1st-the AxefxII is released
2nd-The Euro falls apart
3rd-The USD collapses
4th-The AxefxII rises as the new global currency being valued more per ounce than gold bullion. :)

Ok, now back on topic...sorry. :)

LOL

Our saviour must be the Axe II. The standard and the ultra are already highly devaluered. Or should I sell al my stuff before the world comes to an end. :lol
 
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