Dumble (Ford 2) again....

Btw i changed his account pw immediately, because he is a friend of mine and i don't want some klon , misuses his reputations etc. .

With real passionate enthusiast like him all is personal because he cares about his passion, maybe too much, but isn't it this drive what brings good things above the mainstream ?

rock on
marco
 
Well, let me just say that I have enjoyed this thread immensely. Even before learning about the axe fx years ago, I predicted that a unit similar to it would eventually make tube circuits obsolete in terms of being a superior method for guitar amplification. I knew this would happen because of exactly what Cliff said, ...there is no magic... It can be measured and reproduced in a digital circuit. I'm not saying its easy. I'm not even saying that fractal has totally accomplished the task. But, when compared to my hand wired and tuned marshall, which is not run of the mill, not typical, (or stock)..and is very "organic", the axe gets unbelievably close. I have to tweak it to get it there, but it does get there. The irony of it is that I am actually getting tones that serve the music I play even better with the axe fx. In terms of tone, you can get what ever you want.

Concerning feel, I recently did a gig with a newer marshall combo amp and I seriously missed the axefx. In my opinion the axe feels better and responded better. There does seem to be something in the axe input that feels a little different from my marshall. "Seems"....I can't quite put my finger on it.

All due respect to Paco, I'm sure he is a great guy, excellent player, and obviously knows his shit about tube stuff. I like anything that stirs Cliff up because I always enjoy hearing from him. Kudos to Fractal Audio for blazing new ground. IMHO and all that...
 
Paco, you are taking this personally. I'm merely stating my opinions about Dumbles in general.

Regarding the model: I have two schematics here from two different sources that claim to represent Robben Ford's Dumble. The schematics are virtually identical. The differences are so small as to be inconsequential. The ODS-100 Ford models are based on those schematics. I also have detailed information on all the voltages and transformer specs. Until I receive a schematic AND a real amp that demonstrates otherwise the models are accurate. If I have an accurate schematic and data the model is accurate. That's how good Quantum is. 90%+ of the models in the Axe-Fx we have real amps to verify against. In some cases schematics are inaccurate (sometimes intentionally, i.e. Engl). Without access to Robben's actual Dumble I have no way of verifying the accuracy.

You may not like the models but there is nothing I can do about that until you provide me with information and data that contradicts the information and data I have here. If you would like your own custom model based on your idealized Dumble tone then, frankly, put up or shut up. Provide me with a schematic and a reference amplifier. I will gladly model it. I'll even do it with just a schematic but the accuracy is not guaranteed as a typical schematic does not contain all the information required. Provide me with a schematic, voltage chart, transformer specs, etc. and I'll make a model.
 
Don't stress out Paco ...... we all (well most of us) know the Dumble tone is one of your passions. Through your sound clips you have also demonstrated that you know how to tweak the model and, just as importantly, play a guitar in the way that brings out the best in it.
 
Marco, make sure Paco see's this. An invite to put his amp in the box? Can't ask for anymore than that!

FractalAudio said:
Paco, you are taking this personally. I'm merely stating my opinions about Dumbles in general.

Regarding the model: I have two schematics here from two different sources that claim to represent Robben Ford's Dumble. The schematics are virtually identical. The differences are so small as to be inconsequential. The ODS-100 Ford models are based on those schematics. I also have detailed information on all the voltages and transformer specs. Until I receive a schematic AND a real amp that demonstrates otherwise the models are accurate. If I have an accurate schematic and data the model is accurate. That's how good Quantum is. 90%+ of the models in the Axe-Fx we have real amps to verify against. In some cases schematics are inaccurate (sometimes intentionally, i.e. Engl). Without access to Robben's actual Dumble I have no way of verifying the accuracy.

You may not like the models but there is nothing I can do about that until you provide me with information and data that contradicts the information and data I have here. If you would like your own custom model based on your idealized Dumble tone then, frankly, put up or shut up. Provide me with a schematic and a reference amplifier. I will gladly model it. I'll even do it with just a schematic but the accuracy is not guaranteed as a typical schematic does not contain all the information required. Provide me with a schematic, voltage chart, transformer specs, etc. and I'll make a model.
Click to expand...
 
lano2 said:
Thank you for that information, I didn't know he was playing Carol Ann.
What CAB ?
Click to expand...

FWIW, I think he used it mostly for recording, but check the interwebz for that. As I remember the cab used was a Celestion 80 (which I think is the Mesa CALI IR for us.) I'm not in front of my Axe, so I *might* have used one of the Greenback and/or V30 IR's.
 
Does Paco have an amp that has the Robben Ford sound he's talking about?

If so, he needs to send it to Cliff.
If not, he needs to find one and arrange to have it send to Cliff.

That would solve the problem, right?

If Paco doesn't have one, then he's asking Cliff to either find/model a real RF Dumble, or model a sound in Paco's head.
 
I was dying laughing at Cliffs post last night. He finally got to the point we all get to. I have done this several times with regards to Dumble BS.

As I've always said, studying some of his work has definitely been beneficial, but I could say the same about Fender, Marshall and Ampeg too. His approach to gain staging isn't radically different to Randall Smith, especially if you go back to the early 70's.

As Engineers , all this mojo BS eventually drives us nuts and we drop the bomb like Cliff did.

Just remember when talking Dumble, you have to assess the source, an actual owner may want to preserve the value of his uber expensive investment, a cloner may want to sell you an amp and playing along with all the mojo is part of that. Unicorns, rainbow dust, Radio Shack parts and 5 million renditions of 'Politician' just keep this legend burning. Its the biggest mystery in my business.

I dont understand why someone always goes running off after throwing their toys out of the crib when a Dumble discussion turns bad, its a given. Dumbleites are so sensitive, maybe its all those fragile harmonics affecting their crystal lattice. Either talk tone relating to design in a rationale manner inside the constraints of physics or sign up to a Dumble cloners forum.

All p*** taking aside......

If Cliff needs a non-HRM model to work with, I can help him out, I have access to a couple. But my honest opinion is that people who have never played one will think its not modeled correctly the moment they try to play a power chord on the OD channel.

In 2006 I did a clip quiz on the Gear Page of a 100W EL34 OD2 and a 6L6 50W non-hrm early 80s Dumble, both with me playing the same passage with the same guitar through the same cab. I asked people to guess which was which. The owner of the original Dumble was there to verify I didn't mess with the settings. 95% of the people voting got it 100% wrong, this included many of the most well know Dumble experts including two well known cloners. Come to your own conclusions on this. Maybe that I totally suck playing through the Dumble, maybe clips really don't portray an amp or maybe that people don't actually truly recognize a real Dumble when its right in front of them. The fact I said up front about gain staging in the OD2 being more akin to an HRM vs the non-HRM Dumble, 6L6 vs EL34 and 50W vs 100W made the outcome even more bizarre.

My final parting note. Cliff has given more engineering innovation to more guitar players in the last year alone than Dumble has in his entire life. That is PERSPECTIVE !!!
 
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Folks, wow.... let me share that the beauty of the AXE FX is the ability to get amp and cab sounds you like to play.

If you lust after another player's tone and gear, it's nice to have something that gets you close - and does not cost $50,000. I personally think there is something really unique in the mids and the way they slice through in a band situation playing loud on stage that Dumble style amps do. There may be lots of boutique amps that do the same, or even better -- it's all to taste, and I'm always open to trying new models, maybe I'll get through all 225 in detail before I die (hahaha).

A Dumble would not be an amp I would use for classic power chord rock at all. But for lead notes that push through, I like it - A LOT. For crisp clean beautiful tones, I prefer that sound many times to a Fender amp - but that's just me.

I'm just grateful that Cliff is willing to use his valuable time to put all these different flavors of amps into the AXE FX for us all to enjoy.

Don't like a model, not what you thought it would sound like? Try another, or mess with the parameters. I will tell any of you, if you play Robben Ford's Dumble, or Larry Carlton's, you are not going to "sound just like them" -- because the fingers are such a big part of it. I know people that have actually done so, and I personally can testify to the truth of this.

So, experiment with the 225+ amps available, tweak the advanced parameters, and if you use your ears and take the time to carefully learn what the parameters do (I'm still learning, five years running!), you'll find some great amp model that will do just what you want it to. But don't go in or succumb to the "my Dumble patch doesn't sound just like song X by Dumble player Y" -- that's destined in most instances to disappoint, unless you have their fingers too. (I just enjoy "getting real close!")

Thank you so much Cliff for agreeing to add these G3'd amps to forthcoming firmware -- we sure appreciate it! Otherwise, we'd never have access to this flavor of tones. I can't wait to check them out in next firmware!
 
Tex Axe said:
I am no expert of anything I am most certain I could be fooled by amps or modelers hidden behind curtain #3
I Really doubt I could tell what something is in a mix of other instruments.

I recorded the 50 watt Dumble here and a buddy was playing blues for about an hour
so I let it roll and after he left I fired the axe up and was using a wrecker patch..
I kept dicking with things till it sounded the same to me as the amp on playback then it dawns on me
oh damn that was the Dumble so I was able to match by ear from playback of the Dumble
coming through desk top monitors jbl 4328s and dial that in on jbl eon 15s and the axe...

I saved that and went on and found even better sounds within the axe and saved those
then I started to add efx getting things just right..

I wound up surpassing the actual amp and being able to calm down and play behind my buddy ok
playing off what he had recorded took me awhile to adjust to playing that style and just hang back playing behind
the recording but eventually I was able to do that and not be standing out like a sore thumb.

I recorded the setting I made on the axe and played that back along with the Dumble and could not tell the difference
on playback.

So with that I set out to record every clone and other amp I had to do the same thing
thinking well if I can do that on one amp It can be done with all the others..

Not only that you can surpass the others by being able to have a studio quality type mix of efx
with the axe.. If I record and cant tell the difference here in the mix with or without other instruments mixed
in then thats good enough for me..

How someone could tell on playback is beyond me and most could be fooled in my opinion.
I dont get mad if I get fooled though I have to laugh at say well ya big dummy did you learn anything ?

Did I pay too much for a Dumble amp ?
Perhaps did I learn anything ?
Yea

Do I still like that sound ?
Yea
was I able to find that and beyond in my axe ?

Yea

am I butt hurt because I bought an axe and several amps including one Dumble
to find out about the sound ?

No

What did I learn ?

Nothing on earth is worth treating someone else sub humane or trying to step over someone else or
cause harm to someones business over something stupid as this..
It simply is not worth it..

Did I ever quit my chase for the Grail..?
Nope

Did I find all the tones I wanted that I was looking for ?
Most of them and then some..

Is there anything to be mad about ?
Yes the current James Bond theme is not quite to my tempo..
Click to expand...


Great post, especially the last line. Also great approach and response. On the clips I recorded, they were simple one track , guitar only. The real reason was to prove the point that clips are basically worthless. It was around the same time that Tag guy was posting 5 clips a day of 'Politician' driving everyone mad. The fact many dumble 'experts' walked away egg on face just made it that bit more amusing. Some players may have preferred the feel of one over the other in real life. Like you said, its all preference. However the point of my post was that the Mojo BS surrounding these amps is beyond ridiculous. That's a fact. I just add a coating of British sarcasm to make my point.
 
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Paco :

We don't want to see you leave, your contribution to this forum is greatly appreciated. Cliffs offer about
create a model after your design is something many would even dream about.

Well I just wanted to encourage you to stay on this board :)
 
Great thread.

I have read and learned many interesting technical things here.

Regarding dumble, and even if I had the money available without limit, i would for sure not purchase a 50000 $ amp for any reason.
I would prefer by far concentrate myself to build a collection of some iconic choosen amps for the price.
(The same regarding purchaing a Les paul 59 burst for 300000$ or more ).

I have tried the models, and I like them. Not better or worser as many other model into the Axe FX II.
This is for me all the beauty of a device such as the Axe FX II
Each model has its own character, and it is all that count. (not speaking about capacities to build the right preset to make justice to the amp model)
100% or not, I let that question to specialist.
 
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