X32 mixer and in ears

Yes, mic'ing drums.. in our case.
We have to do that for the larger - house provided FOH systems - so we just kept it .. permanently..

Our drummer suffers from the same thing that many drummers have (pet peeve) .. that ALL their acoustic drums need mics in a club/bar size venue. NOT!

I've run sound for many bands in those size venues using kick/snare/OH mics and never had a complaint about not hearing toms/cymbals, etc.

As a result of everything being mic'ed up (8 channels).. I have kick/snare in my IEM mix and mute the rest of the drums.
YMMV

We multitrack record all our shows so the drums are always mic'ed up.

For small venues, the drums are not in the FOH except for a little kick. He beats the shit out of the snare and it actually drowns out the band in FOH sometimes lol
 
We live in a stereo world... Your brain has trouble when everything is right up the middle over time... fatiguing, it's proven, studied, published. Again to each his own, but there is a reason all the iems are stereo. The x32 has a shitload of outs, so i'm not sure why you wouldn't, other than stubbornness.

We mic drums if we were in a 10x10 room, I don't care it's going through my ears and I want to hear everything. I strive to have cd quality sound at a gig... still working on that. I run my guitar panned hard left and right, drums around in stereo, bass on the right, my vox on left 50%, stage right 50% right... since doing this i've noticed people in the band dont futz with their faders all night.. last 3 gigs we have just turned it on, put in our buds and played.

I put mine up loud enough so i can not hear the drums acoustically, but not so loud my ears ring at the end of the night, like listening to an ipod loud.

Just experiment, find out what works for you. There are no strict guidlines, much like the Axe-Fx.
 
Question on the stereo mix concept: if you have 2 guitarists, are you hard panning one left and one right? If so, does it sound odd when a solo starts and it's hard panned?


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I have to disagree a bit about the CD mix thing... I'm performing and just need to "monitor" what the other guys are doing. I pan things so I know anything from "over here" is this guy, anything from "over there" is that guy. That's it.

For mono mixes, I just need to hear what people are playing in general.

Without IEM, when you hear a guitar solo come from the right side of the stage because that's where is amp is, does that sound weird? No. Because that's where he is.

If you have the cd quality mix already, cool. But I don't recommend chasing that for people new to IEM. Just get it to where you can hear and discern everyone so you can perform and play music. You'll find it easier to get to the playing part, instead of figuring out what drum mic isn't perfect, holding up the show and making your performance "suffer" because you can't hear the 8" tom that the drummer barely used anyway. (A real situation from a gig I did.)
 
My IEM mix is full stereo and is at the least CD quality, I would put it to DVD quality as the board is running at 48khz.

Next gig if I rem, I'll tap and take a recording. After having this, going back to mono would be like going from digital cable streams to AM radio.... yuck.

If you've never experienced it you really have no idea.
 
I agree about putting the show first and foremost.

But mono in ears are too fatiguing for me. By mid second set, I'm ready to pull them.

I like a really good stereo full band mix, with more me for vocals and guitar. Vocals especially I like to be able to control the volume, tone and pan. It really helps me sing backgrounds when I get that right.
 
A mono in-ear mix is much more difficult to hear individual parts in and generally requires much more EQing of individual instruments than a stereo mix to attain clarity. Sound guys are going to be way more inclined to simply pan something a bit than they are to have you walk them through pushing and pulling various frequencies on a PEQ for every part in your mix. You have two ears for reason.
 
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Yes, stereo is of course better. I'm just saying mono can work as well and don't let the search for a perfect monitor mix ruin your performance or your perception of the performance. It's the same ol' stop tweaking start playing thing we say about the axe.

Your mileage obviously varies :)
 
A mono in-ear mix is much more difficult to hear individual parts in and generally requires much more EQing of individual instruments than a stereo mix to attain clarity. Sound guys are going to be way more inclined to simply pan something a bit than they are to have you walk them through pushing and pulling various frequencies on a PEQ for every part in your mix. You have two ears for reason.
Well, I guess there's 2 schools of thought there... in my case, been running "mono" live for years. It's all about what you are used to and are comfortable with. Been practicing with phones for many, many years (keeps the noise down late at night with kids, etc.).
I have no issues hearing things in my IEM mix, even with 2 guitars going.. but then, my volumes are low and the mix is well EQ'd.

The biggest challenge IMHO is the ears... mono mix, 2 electrics, 2 acoustics (etc) with single drivers is HORRENDOUS! Stereo is almost a necessity. Mono with triple or quad+ drivers (I run 1964 Ears Qi's) is VERY workable.

Besides, there's no real stereo (except for keys) live anyway.. unless there are multiple inputs on other instruments. Every single drum is mono, vocals are mono, most guitars/bass are mono also - single channel on teh console, so "stereo" is something of a misnomer. :)

What we're really talking about is panning capability within the IEM sound stage.. so when you have 2 guitars going, you can separate/move them into their own space for ease of monitoring. I can do that in my "mono" mix by panning them L/R before the feed to my IEM Xmitter (from one of the main busses on our X32).
Obviously, that capability will vary by mixer.

My point is that absolutely one can perform and monitor well with a "mono" mix. Yes, the "stereo" part makes it easier to adjust to for noobs.
 
This is a great thread for those who use in-ears on stage.

Currently I'm using stereo out to my ears, and originally I had the panning similar to where the other musicians are onstage (got this tip from JamHub guys).

However, lately I've been mixing more like an "engineer" (which I am totally not!), and read how the vocals, drums, and bass should be panned center. Now I'm feeling like I really cant' hear anyone, or maybe it's just me.

Curious to see how others are panning their IEM mixes. Also, what about lo cut, comp, and gating? Alot of cool choices on the X32 (I even checked out the artist presets and messed around with them). Do you guys put a gate on the drum mics to stop the bleeding from monitors or cabs?

As for mic'ing drums live, we have a snake split for kick, snare, and one overhead, but we've noticed that the soundguys get overwhelmed with all the splits (we give him a total of five: wireless mic, 2 AxeFX, bass DI, backing tracks). So lately we just stick an overhead mic (separate and apart from the FOH overhead) just to get some drums on our ears (drummer plays to a click). Best case scenario for us (for setting up/tearing down) would be to not bother mic'ing the drums at all, but we never too the gamble of doing that in case we can't hear the drums at all and the whole gig goes to sh*t.

In the studio we mic the whole drums. We tried MUTING the drum channels to see if we can still hear the drums, but our rehearsal room is so small we can't help but hear the drums anyway. So I'm curious to hear those that do not mic drums if they can still hear it on a mid to larger stage.

Anyways, great thread with lots of awesome insights!

\m/

PJ
 
pjrake;1187471 As for mic'ing drums live said:
Yes, last gig we had the sound guy looked at me like i was speaking in some 2000 year old dead language when i was showing him the splitter. After the gig, he was like, wow thats the way to go.

Doing my duty.... bringing one sound guy at a time into this decade.

Last night we played at Alrosa Villa in Columbus (where Dimebag was shot down) and we had very quick turn around times between bands so we ditched the ear rig and rocked the wedges.. Old still works, but i missed the non ear plugged clear sound of my guitar.
 
Currently I'm using stereo out to my ears, and originally I had the panning similar to where the other musicians are onstage (got this tip from JamHub guys).

However, lately I've been mixing more like an "engineer" (which I am totally not!), and read how the vocals, drums, and bass should be panned center. Now I'm feeling like I really cant' hear anyone, or maybe it's just me.
I've run sound for so many years that I am used to "picking out" instruments in a mix, plus woodshedding with phones at home, that I have no need to use a stereo IEM mix. I have it available at church (avioms) but only monitor the instruments I need to hear to play off of... so I don't need a CD mix. Obviously, this doesn't work for everyone.. as you (and others) have indicated. For me.. I'm monitoring what I need to hear. So when playing guitar, I need me, kick, snare, lead vox, my vox, a little of the other vocalist, other guitar/keys. Much the same for bass, but add in other guitars (both play leads) and keys - if there. Toms and other stuff I don't need to monitor I simply mute. Playing bass at church, we often have two acoustics, 2 electrics + keys and multiple vox. I mute both acoustics, keep guitar #2 low in the mix, have lead gtr loud enough to hear, have kick, snare, keys and lead vox balanced in the mix. The rest.. OFF!!
My use of IEM's is to be able to CLEARLY hear what I need to play my best, replacing the often muddy mess one usually got with traditionally directional wedges. Sure you can get additional features such as stereo mixes (as a side benefit) with IEM's, but you're monitoring a live band playing.. NOT listening to CD's!

Curious to see how others are panning their IEM mixes. Also, what about lo cut, comp, and gating? Alot of cool choices on the X32 (I even checked out the artist presets and messed around with them). Do you guys put a gate on the drum mics to stop the bleeding from monitors or cabs?
We have an X32 Producer, run from stage with the mix adjusted out front (via iPad after sound check) by the guitar players wife. She's a Sony artist promo agent, so she knows what good sounds like. I'll occasionally remove my IEM's and walk - to double check FOH sound. We have Lo Cut on vocals, gates on drums, compression on kick, etc. We all run mono IEM mixes.

As for mic'ing drums live, we have a snake split for kick, snare, and one overhead, but we've noticed that the soundguys get overwhelmed with all the splits (we give him a total of five: wireless mic, 2 AxeFX, bass DI, backing tracks). So lately we just stick an overhead mic (separate and apart from the FOH overhead) just to get some drums on our ears (drummer plays to a click).
We don't do the multiple band thing - unless we open for a Nat'l act at larger venues or do the Festival thing. Yes, we mic all drums, so we run 8 channels of drums, 3 vox, 2 acoustics (one split with a mandolin), 2 electrics. 2nd guitar moves between electric, acoustic, mandolin and banjo for most 4hr sets.
At house-provided PA venues we plug into their stage snake (all 15 channels) then map their splitter channels into our X32. For example we have kick on Ch1, so if their kick is on Ch12, we'll take split #12 and plug into our #1. I keep notes on my phone on venue splits map to our X32, so I can quickly recall and map them the next time we go there!
What all this does is PROVIDE us consistent IEM mixes whether FOH is House provided or we use our own PA. We use all our own mics/cables so input levels to the X32 are pretty much identical for each gig.

At Festival-type events, where FOH and SR is vendor provided, we tend to go back to wedges as the vendors seldom care [too much, or advance] stage plots, etc.
 
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I've run sound for so many years that I am used to "picking out" instruments in a mix, plus woodshedding with phones at home, that I have no need to use a stereo IEM mix.

My use of IEM's is to be able to CLEARLY hear what I need to play my best, replacing the often muddy mess one usually got with traditionally directional wedges. Sure you can get additional features such as stereo mixes (as a side benefit) with IEM's, but you're monitoring a live band playing.. NOT listening to CD's!

If mono is working for you that's great, but seriously....Stereo mixes as a side benefit? :roll

When I am monitoring my band while we perform, It's like playing along with a professional, studio produced, mixed and mastered, guitar-less backing track, which is just like listening to a CD.

I hear what my audience is hearing out our FoH. I don't have to "pick out" instruments either. Every source has been mixed and has it's own freq space and is panned and delayed and compressed just right to give it depth and clarity and create a 3D full stereo soundstage. It really is like listening to a CD on a 12,000 watt FoH. This was the reason I bought the X32 Producer, was to give me this ability.

FWIW I have experienced mono and will never do it again. There is no reason to limit yourself in this day and age.



PS. I too have ran sound for over 20 years.
 
So, my band is really seriously considering getting into an IEM system, but probably the XR-18.

Anyway, a couple more questions for you guys who are using this setup:

Do you have any issues with Fletcher-Munson affecting the sound in your IEMs vs the FOH? In other words, after dialing in your in ear tones how do they translate to the PA?

Do you enjoy the IEM experience or would you prefer to be playing thru cabs (FRFR or otherwise)?

Are you using IEMs because to get "acceptable monitoring" or to get a really great monitor mix?

I would love to have a stereo, CD-quality monitor mix. How hard is that to achieve?

Thanks!


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Do you have any issues with Fletcher-Munson affecting the sound in your IEMs vs the FOH? In other words, after dialing in your in ear tones how do they translate to the PA?

My tones are crisp and too bright in the FOH, relative to what I hear through my in-ears. That means I monitor through in-ears at a lower level than the SPL the FOH typically uses. I build a custom EQ to address this by comparing my in-ear tones to my studio monitors set at the appropriate SPL. It's a reverse "V", with highs and lows cut. I turn this on for my FOH feed (Output 1) for all presets when I play live. This EQ is not in the signal path for Output 2, which feeds my in-ears.

Do you enjoy the IEM experience or would you prefer to be playing thru cabs (FRFR or otherwise)?

Love my in-ears! I get to hear everything I want, clearly, at comfortable SPL's. I had to do a couple of gigs with a FRFR monitor and I was happy when I could play again using in-ears.

Terry.
 
The phrase "CD quality" is misleading. Anything mic'd and sent direct to your ears with these mixers is going to sound high quality because the audio and engines are high quality digital units.

I think the real meaning when people say it in this thread is "mixed and mastered" like a CD. So compression and panning and levels are perfect.

In ear monitors have given me the best playing experience ever and I don't have ringing ears and I'm not shouting at people after the gig. I do NOT need a wall of sound blaring at me, the audience or the bar/workers from guitar amps or speakers on stage.

In my experience, dial your tones for the big sound systems and the audience, then use the EQ on your IEM mixers to change how it sounds in your ears. However I barely change a thing, maybe just a bit more bass and treble for my IEMs - but that again depends on what IEMs you use etc.
 
Hmmm, I wonder if I'm approaching this the wrong way. I run my IEM stereo. That is I use the x32 rack and I have my in ear plugged into XLR outs 3 and 4. So I use sends on fader to put what I want mix wise in which ear. Now is that stereo? I don't know but I do not hard pan anything in my mix. I simply mix what I want in each ear.

Is this how you guys are doing this with your x32's?
 
I guess it is stereo if you keep the 3/4 faders panned and the source material is stereo.
 
We us a jamhub for practice, have for years. We got the x32 rack and we brought it down, mic'd all the drums with overheads. Worked on getting good drum sounds (gates, eq, verb), just like you would in a studio. We have our own mics so this is consistent gig to gig. Bass is direct, guitar is direct, again consistent. I pan drums in stereo, so toms move from left ear to right ear, hat is more in the left ear etc. This makes it sound more real and open IMHO. Guitar is stage left, in my mix I have my guitars hard left and right, other mixes it is panned depending on where they are standing, so stage right my guitar is mainly in his left ear.

I'm not looking for just being able to hear personally... I want as close to studio quality type mixes I can get. I paid good money for all this crap, it should be providing me the best possible experience.
 
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