Why does the sound of a modeler have to be "the sound of a miced amp" instead of "the sound of an amp"

[Robbie Boyette]

Let's pray to God drummers never get their Fractal (I know Roland stuff is pretty good but still..), we don't want to be the weakest link in the chain!

However, there are always singers..

I play a gig at The WestGate Resort Casino here in Vegas. And they have a house set of really nice Roland V-Drums.
But our idiot bass player insists on jumping up on the drum riser and dancing about all over the trigger cables running into the brain.
One minute we're kicking ass, the next minute the snare drum is gone...or the hi-hat starts double tracking. And I look over and there is the bass player dancing all over the cables!

 

[AlbertA]

Mine is " so you built these amps transitors, qualities, from scratch, why does it have to include a "fake ribbon mic, or fake "57" in the model. But the answer is becuase its the only way to capture the qualities of the cab that generally goes with that amp, and that its not a "fake" mic, becuase its hopefully what was used to capture it.

I think someone above explained you CAN remove the "mic" variable from inside the modeler, perhaps I will do that.

I am not someone who needs convincing or anything I am just wondering "why" people say these things about modelers/amps but again its semantics. Whats not semantics is that it truy does include a "mic" sound with "placement" in all sounds. Even if youre trying to be dead basic as pluggin into an amp in real life.

I can see why someone would draw that conclusion - "hey if you can simulate a tube and I can change a bunch of things there,,, surely you must be simulating a speaker, the box and the a mic as well - why can't I remove the mic in this model?" But that's not exactly how speaker cabinets are simulated.

Note that to date - there's no system so far (even non-realtime) that can model a guitar/speaker cabinet box virtually, from specifications of the components themselves - maybe this is where the confusion comes from?

Cabinet simulation is done by doing convolution of your signal with a captured impulse responses of an actual guitar cabinet, which requires a microphone to capture.

An IR maker/producer/vendor could decide to use a calibrated measurement mic (For example TC30 - http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Earthworks/TC30) to capture and remove the contribution of the mic to the final impulse response - note there's no tools in the box for you to do this - you either have to capture it yourself or find some IR vendor that provides those choices.

However, the approach taken by most vendors and Fractal Audio now is to capture a speaker cabinet with typical microphones used on a typical guitar recording session - In the case of the built-in IRs, that mostly SM57/Royer R-121 and a few others. IR vendors have a plethora of other choices as well.
The key here however, is that the response of the microphone and the cabinet are combined in the impulse response - you can't separate it.

There are I think maybe about 4 IRs, that were captured with the TC30 in the built-in IR list - but that's about it.

Hopefully this explains it.

 

[laxu]

An IR maker/producer/vendor could decide to use a calibrated measurement mic (For example TC30 - http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Earthworks/TC30) to capture and remove the contribution of the mic to the final impulse response - note there's no tools in the box for you to do this - you either have to capture it yourself or find some IR vendor that provides those choices.

And like I mentioned earlier in this thread, even that does not mean you don't want high/low cuts in there. It does not produce a "cab in the room" sound either. I will provide some IRs of my cabs using a Sonarworks XREF20 mic when I have time to sort my captures and if I can figure out how to get well working Fullres IRs. While I don't have the actual calibration applied on the XREF20, it's reasonably close to flat out of the box.

To me the only way to get something akin to what OP wants is to have actual fully software simulation of the speaker. We all know those attempts from the past haven't turned out so well and it's a way more complex subject than measuring the electrical behavior of an amplifier because even that same speaker in a different enclosure or different room will sound different. Maybe in the future Cliff or someone else cracks it but until then, IRs can be a very accurate representation of what the mic picks up.

 

[Andy Eagle]

But still no matter how you try or what you do you can't get the effect of your guitar plugged straight in to a twin reverb dry three foot away.
No FRFR Ive ever tried (and that's most of them ) can do this even half convincingly .
But set that up in the studio and then replicate it on axe 3 direct and play both back through the monitor and it's practically identical.

 

[Will Chen]

But still no matter how you try or what you do you can't get the effect of your guitar plugged straight in to a twin reverb dry three foot away.
No FRFR Ive ever tried (and that's most of them ) can do this even half convincingly .
But set that up in the studio and then replicate it on axe 3 direct and play both back through the monitor and it's practically identical.

The reason it sounds the same in the studio is an IR does a magnificent job of capturing the filter created by a guitar cabinet and mic (and even a preamp's tonal coloration, though none of the clipping nor compression). But a guitar speaker/cab's off axis response is poor. We as guitar players tune that additional filter by where we stand relative to our amps and this is exponentially complicated by open back amp designs. An FRFR by comparison is designed for a wide dispersion attempting to limit the effects of listening off axis (and of course no rear throw). And yet again, if we are speaking about consistency in tone, that IR will sound the same coming though an FRFR with some minor room adjustments no matter where you play. If one typically places their amp 2-3 feet away from a wall in their room, and then goes to a gig where the amp sits against the wall the bass will be greatly boost or take it outside where you get no reflections from the rear of the amp and suddenly the mids thin out and the amp sounds small. It's a give and take.

So for sure any close miced 3rd party IR amplified though an FRFR can never sound like an open back amp monitored off axis within a specific room. Just impossible (unless perhaps one rolls there own IR of their own cab in their room with the mic placed roughly where they monitor from, would probably get pretty darn close). However, very easy to run any modeler into a guitar cab if one wants that experience...

 

[ishockyou]

I’ve experimented with far-field IRs for recording and FOH, and it wasn’t satisfactory.

i kinda like using a close mic IR (SM57, etc) and blending a bit of a room IR for a similar speaker at a reduced volume. the room/far field IR adds a nice little low end to the sound. I do that in the cab block. I could probably accomplish that with eq but Thera are many ways in Fractal world. I tried using the room parameters and didn’t really like it too much.

 

[ishockyou]

Anyone who's gigged a bunch with an amp knows amps don't even sound like themselves from room to room requiring lots of adjust to get a similar response in differing environments. If a deluxe in your room is the epitomy of tone, just go with it and stop worrying about it. But a huge benefit of having a modeler is not being limited to the sound of said amp in said room...

That’s why i switched to modeling. I got sick of setting up my stuff and being completely thrown off by my amp during the performance. That and logging the 75 lb amp from bar to bar got old…

 

[Xcdchdchjjf]

turn off the cab sim and listen through a full range speaker. that's why we need a mic'd cab emulation.

play the same Axe signal with no cab sim through a real guitar cab and it will sound like the "guitar amp sound" you know.

a full range speaker is a speaker in a cabinet - it's just not a guitar cabinet that produces that specific sound. you'd experience the reverse if you played full range music through a guitar cab - it won't sound right.

it's all about the specific speaker reproducing the sound. the cab of a real amp/cab produces at least half (maybe more) of the tone.

a physical full range speaker cannot sound like a guitar cab and speaker because it physically is not one. to make that type of sound come out of a full range speaker, a cab simulation has to be used. to create a cab simulation, a microphone is used to record what the cab sounds like in the form of an Impulse Response.

some people don't use a cab block and instead use some form of EQ to create a familiar guitar tone. the microphone used for IRs is just a choice to "bake in" popular mics used on actual recordings.

the sound of an amp is what you get when you turn cab sims off. a real amp would sound like that without a cab as well. so you aren't getting "the sound of an amp" because no one ever listens to that. you're getting the sound of an amp and cab, and a cab has to be recorded with a microphone for it to get on a recording or to create an IR of that specific cab. again you could also just manually add an EQ, but an IR makes sense because it's a version of the real cab the real amp would be using anyway.

no one hears "just" the sound of an amp in almost all cases. it's always an amp and cab. IRs need to be used to make a full range speaker sound like a guitar cab.

So I guess what I meant was, why does it have to have the "flavor of another mic" rather than a cab, a "cab" sim being an eq only (or some dynamic eq). But maybe someone else answered this above that there is a "amp in the room" preset, or a "flat cab" preset. What I meant was I buy and amp and cab (or just a combo), but not a mic. I hear with my ears. Now in the modeler world they are saying, so you hear now with some mic emulation & IR bullsh-t.

Anyway Ill keep in the backround and watch others ask every week "how do I play this fractal device out of a speaker now?"


FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

So why with the shiny new/old FM3, do we now have to hear "it miked with an sm57! :0" then played out of a speaker.

Maybe what i really need to buy is a Bassbreaker, with its DI out. Problem solved...?

 

[IAmThePepperoniKing]

So I guess what I meant was, why does it have to have the "flavor of another mic" rather than a cab, a "cab" sim being an eq only (or some dynamic eq). But maybe someone else answered this above that there is a "amp in the room" preset, or a "flat cab" preset. What I meant was I buy and amp and cab (or just a combo), but not a mic. I hear with my ears. Now in the modeler world they are saying, so you hear now with some mic emulation & IR bullsh-t.

Anyway Ill keep in the backround and watch others ask every week "how do I play this fractal device out of a speaker now?"


FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

So why with the shiny new/old FM3, do we now have to hear "it miked with an sm57! :0" then played out of a speaker.

Maybe what i really need to buy is a Bassbreaker, with its DI out. Problem solved...?

Step 1. Turn of cab block
Step 2. Plug modeler into a power amp (tube or solid state; I use a Quilter)
Step 3. Plug power amp into guitar speaker cab.

Voila. Amp in the room. Need to run it to a PA? Send output 1 to the PA with a cab block/IR, send output 2 with no cab block/IR to the power amp/guitar cab.

 

[Stewart]

I have the Gemini 2 powered speaker and it has a little knob that can give you more amp in the room feel, probably just some EQ setting, but it does work for my tastes.

It is amazing how different the “amp in the room” sounds based on your orientation to the amp in the room

 

[NeoSound]

So I guess what I meant was, why does it have to have the "flavor of another mic" rather than a cab, a "cab" sim being an eq only (or some dynamic eq). But maybe someone else answered this above that there is a "amp in the room" preset, or a "flat cab" preset. What I meant was I buy and amp and cab (or just a combo), but not a mic. I hear with my ears. Now in the modeler world they are saying, so you hear now with some mic emulation & IR bullsh-t.

Anyway Ill keep in the backround and watch others ask every week "how do I play this fractal device out of a speaker now?"


FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

So why with the shiny new/old FM3, do we now have to hear "it miked with an sm57! :0" then played out of a speaker.

Maybe what i really need to buy is a Bassbreaker, with its DI out. Problem solved...?

Just get a flat power amp, turn off cab modeling and use your favorite guitar cab. Problem solved.

Edit: pepperoni king beat me to it

 

[Scooterjohn]

Not saying things can't change, but just looking at the past, it's probably immediately unlikely. Basing that off of the FX8 and how it was apparently not as popular as the AX8.

Really like my FX8, just added many sonic possibilities with its badass cousin.

 

[Joel.Brown333]

I either turn off power amp and cab modeling and run the FM3 into the FX return of a power amp and guitar cab.

Or I do this:

After a little EQ tweaking in the FM3, it's hard to tell the difference.

And I get what you're saying. I want the sound of a real amp not a real amp mic'd up. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's semantics, I don't care. The two methods I'm using make me happy.

 

[Rumbletone]

2 thoughts:

1. it doesn't have to be if you don't want it to be - turn off the cab IR etc and plug it into a real amp and cab.

2. for many of us, what matters is how it sounds (i) through a PA to the audience (and to a lesser extent through IEMs or wedges I'm using to monitor), and (ii) recorded - in either of which case the amp is mic'd (or otherwise injected into a PA or into a recorder) - so for me, the modeller is replacing the mic'd amp that I'd be hearing through IEMs, PA wedges, or studio headphones/monitors.

And although I could run the modeller into a real amp and cab and then mic or DI it, part of the advantage of a modeller for me is that I don't need to haul, find stage space for, set-up, etc. all that gear. If I wanted to still do that, I wouldn't bother with a modeller - I'd just use a real tube amp and cab(s).

 

[Rumbletone]

FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

Some are not micing at practice (and some are), but I'm always mic'd live or in the studio (and monitoring the mic'd amp through IEMs/monitors), and for me that's what really counts. And these days at most rehearsals I'm using IEM's - so if I use a real amp I still need to mic it and that's what I'd hear through my IEMs.

 

[Piing]

FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

So why with the shiny new/old FM3, do we now have to hear "it miked with an sm57! :0" then played out of a speaker.

Maybe what i really need to buy is a Bassbreaker, with its DI out. Problem solved...?

That depends on what speakers you are using to monitor your FM3. It is a simple question of physics. Do not expect a tiny FRFR speaker to move the air though the room as an Amp/Cab combo does, no matter how good it sounds. It is physically impossible. Several solutions to that issue have already been exposed at this thread.

 

[Sixstring]

So I guess what I meant was, why does it have to have the "flavor of another mic" rather than a cab, a "cab" sim being an eq only (or some dynamic eq). But maybe someone else answered this above that there is a "amp in the room" preset, or a "flat cab" preset. What I meant was I buy and amp and cab (or just a combo), but not a mic. I hear with my ears. Now in the modeler world they are saying, so you hear now with some mic emulation & IR bullsh-t.

Anyway Ill keep in the backround and watch others ask every week "how do I play this fractal device out of a speaker now?"


FOR INSTANCE. Say you walk into a band practive with your shiny FM3, to people who are used to tube amps for real. And at BAND PRACTICE noone is Micing their amps. They are plugging into a Amp+Cab/or combo and its DONE. The sound you are hearing of the cab (a dynamic eq curve) you are hearing with your ears.

So why with the shiny new/old FM3, do we now have to hear "it miked with an sm57! :0" then played out of a speaker.

Maybe what i really need to buy is a Bassbreaker, with its DI out. Problem solved...?

There used to be I/R's that simply used a neutral mic (Earthworks) to capture the convolution of the speaker/cab with no mic flavor at all. I'm sure they are still floating around, you might try one of those to see if it works for you! The only other true way is to use an amp like you have already posted or use a power amp and guitar cab to get the results you are looking for!

 

[mr_fender]

Even with a flat response mic, it's still only going to give you the response of the speaker at that one specific mic position.

Think of it like this. If you take a picture of someone face on, you can't use that picture to see what they look like from a different direction. The only information you have is from the front. Similarly, an IR will only give you the "sound" of a speaker from that one specific mic position. In a recording or FOH context, that is perfectly adequate because that is what you are used to hearing anyway. But in an "in the room" scenario, you are often experiencing the amp and cab in a much more interactive and dynamic way as you move around in the room. The way that speaker throws sound into the space and how it bounces off all the walls around you is very dependent on the physical dispersion characteristics of the speaker/cab. That can't be modeled... yet.

 

[Sixstring]

Even with a flat response mic, it's still only going to give you the response of the speaker at that one specific mic position.

Think of it like this. If you take a picture of someone face on, you can't use that picture to see what they look like from a different direction. The only information you have is from the front. Similarly, an IR will only give you the "sound" of a speaker from that one specific mic position. In a recording or FOH context, that is perfectly adequate because that is what you are used to hearing anyway. But in an "in the room" scenario, you are often experiencing the amp and cab in a much more interactive and dynamic way as you move around in the room. The way that speaker throws sound into the space and how it bounces off all the walls around you is very dependent on the physical dispersion characteristics of the speaker/cab. That can't be modeled... yet.

Until such a solution is found the only true answer is to use a power amp and guitar cab or a real amp!

 

[mr_fender]

If you want the exact same "in the room" interaction of a guitar cab, then yes use a guitar cab to monitor.