Why does the sound of a modeler have to be "the sound of a miced amp" instead of "the sound of an amp"

you can exclude the cab block, so you will "ear" what a cabinet "ears"... Then you could use a power amp to feed a cabinet...then...you got your "non mic" sound...and guess what? It sounds like an amp, because you use an amp. Digital modellers are born to be alternative to amps (even if you could use them with power amps and cabs).
 
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The sound of a modeler does not "have to be the sound of a mic'd amp."
The sound of an impulse response does.

My first point is semantical, so let me explain: you can connect the output of an amp modeler -- with cab sims turned off -- to a power amp and any guitar cab. That guitar cab will then sound like itself, demonstrating all of the sonic and physically interactive properties that make it unique, and interacting with the environment around itself to present the expected experience. Our products are designed to support this application and it is a popular way that they are used.

If you examine a guitar speaker cabinet, however, you will find that some of the properties that make it sound "like itself" also make it more challenging to reproduce when using a full range speaker like a studio monitor (or PA or headphones, etc.)

For example, how can a studio monitor or FRFR guitar speaker project backwards the way an open backed cab does, or change its "beaming pattern" to create the experience of different sized speakers or cabs? Or create the phasing effects of multiple speakers in a single cabinet? Or behave like it's on the floor when it's actually at ear level?

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It doesn't - set the cab+pwramp modelling off and feed output to your combo's fx rtn - now your modeller is the sound of an unmic'd preamp used with the combo's pwramp + speaker to yield an "unmic'd amp in the room" sound

If you choose to use cab modelling, microphone character is always baked in since a cab ir IS a mic recording of a speaker.

You can mix and match the usage with most modellers to any/all of: preamp, poweramp, mic/cab, fx (excluding power amp only)
 
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Admin M@ said:
The sound of a modeler does not "have to be the sound of a mic'd amp."
The sound of an impulse response does.

My first point is semantical, so let me explain: you can connect the output of an amp modeler -- with cab sims turned off -- to a power amp and any guitar cab. That guitar cab will then sound like itself, demonstrating all of the sonic and physically interactive properties that make it unique, and interacting with the environment around itself to present the expected experience. Our products are designed to support this application and it is a popular way that they are used.

If you examine a guitar speaker cabinet, however, you will find that some of the properties that make it sound "like itself" also make it more challenging to reproduce when using a full range speaker like a studio monitor (or PA or headphones, etc.)

For example, how can a studio monitor or FRFR guitar speaker project backwards the way an open backed cab does, or change its "beaming pattern" to create the experience of different sized speakers or cabs? Or create the phasing effects of multiple speakers in a single cabinet? Or behave like it's on the floor when it's actually at ear level?
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Then, if you record with it, you're back to square one!:tearsofjoy:
 
The experience of playing through an actual unmiked amp and cab are in many ways just a very personal experience. That's part of the frustration of the artist and audio engineers (mostly the artist), to translate that sound with 100% fidelity. Don't skip over the quote from Satriani in the Cordy video above:

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I love this question because it really can't be answered in any sensical way. I think I brought this up in a gear Facebook group once; like, why can't we just hear what it sounds like WITHOUT the mic? Well, it just doesn't work that way in reality :)
 
I love this question because it really can't be answered in any sensical way. I think I brought this up in a gear Facebook group once; like, why can't we just hear what it sounds like WITHOUT the mic? Well, it just doesn't work that way in reality :)

Unless you provide each member of the audience with his or her own guitar cab.
 
Admin M@ said:
The sound of a modeler does not "have to be the sound of a mic'd amp."
The sound of an impulse response does.

My first point is semantical, so let me explain: you can connect the output of an amp modeler -- with cab sims turned off -- to a power amp and any guitar cab. That guitar cab will then sound like itself, demonstrating all of the sonic and physically interactive properties that make it unique, and interacting with the environment around itself to present the expected experience. Our products are designed to support this application and it is a popular way that they are used.

If you examine a guitar speaker cabinet, however, you will find that some of the properties that make it sound "like itself" also make it more challenging to reproduce when using a full range speaker like a studio monitor (or PA or headphones, etc.)

For example, how can a studio monitor or FRFR guitar speaker project backwards the way an open backed cab does, or change its "beaming pattern" to create the experience of different sized speakers or cabs? Or create the phasing effects of multiple speakers in a single cabinet? Or behave like it's on the floor when it's actually at ear level?

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I made a similar point on TGP (gasp) the other day. I think it's a key piece that people miss in the FRFR vs cab discussion.

FRFR is a jack of all trades, master of none solution for modeling.

Cabs are the real deal (given a good power amp).

Both have their application.

I want my FOH tone to sound good, but I'm more concerned about how it sounds 'to me', and what I hear on stage is 'my' Cab - so I usually dial my tones in through the cab, and then pick an IR to send to FOH that's close enough and them I'm done with it..... Just how I use it. :)
 
This is why you can run any modeler with a power amp and a cab. Many do to great success, especially household names.

But again, take any of your favorite tube amps, leave the settings alone, run them through different cabinets and you'll hear right away how much influence a speaker cabinet and the speakers have on your tone. We haven't even layered in the influence of a room, the floor material, and any microphones, placement etc. for FOH and the audience.

The beauty of this is that you can do all of the above with the right IR and never have to worry about it and still have your amp+cab sound on stage for yourself. It was my preferred method for many many many years on stages from The LA Forum to the local bar.
 
Ugly Bunny said:
I love this question because it really can't be answered in any sensical way. I think I brought this up in a gear Facebook group once; like, why can't we just hear what it sounds like WITHOUT the mic? Well, it just doesn't work that way in reality :)
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Yeah, and one last point is, how often do guitarists say, "I love so-and-so's tone!"? Well, guess what? You're hearing a miked cab!
 
fcs101 said:
Yeah, and one last point is, how often do guitarists say, "I love so-and-so's tone!"? Well, guess what? You're hearing a miked cab!
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This is a simple and interesting point. However what if I said "I love my tone coming out of my Fender Deluxe."

That is not using a mic. But it IS using pedals to change eq and loads of other sonic properties, (none of which involve a mic sim or IR, of course)).
Admin M@ said:
The sound of a modeler does not "have to be the sound of a mic'd amp."
The sound of an impulse response does.

My first point is semantical, so let me explain: you can connect the output of an amp modeler -- with cab sims turned off -- to a power amp and any guitar cab. That guitar cab will then sound like itself, demonstrating all of the sonic and physically interactive properties that make it unique, and interacting with the environment around itself to present the expected experience. Our products are designed to support this application and it is a popular way that they are used.

If you examine a guitar speaker cabinet, however, you will find that some of the properties that make it sound "like itself" also make it more challenging to reproduce when using a full range speaker like a studio monitor (or PA or headphones, etc.)

For example, how can a studio monitor or FRFR guitar speaker project backwards the way an open backed cab does, or change its "beaming pattern" to create the experience of different sized speakers or cabs? Or create the phasing effects of multiple speakers in a single cabinet? Or behave like it's on the floor when it's actually at ear level?

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But Surely you CAN change the laws of physics, can't you ;-).

I see completely what you are saying. I guess i havent tried a FRFR and actually I prefer Flat sound like studio monitors. With the Fender amps I always buy the closed back second cab addition so I try to have a "full range" sound, but using tubes.

I guess thats the discrepancy. Most guitar players would perhaps WANT the "guitar cab emulated eq curve."

Some people dont I believe Prince was known for putting in his guitar direct to the mixing board, and some other people recently have been uncovered that great solos were done that way too.


Is there somewhere that gets into the detailed engineering/sceientific side of WHAT everything is doing in the fractal? I know there is a Wiki. And a couple interviews. Lately my favorite thing is just opening the Drive block list and playing around with the 43 or so drives there are...its pretty incredible...


I wonder if Billy Corgan has tried the Fractal.... seems like he might be a big time adopter... forward thinking tone freak.




I even love it with the Neumann Mic I have into the Sound Devices recorder, but thats because it basically sounds "like it sounds" to my ears but a bit better.

When I plug in the Fractal to my HRD (only option I have atm really), it is a mic "sound" or "boxy" (using a term I see repeated about modelers), if I remove the cab from the Fractal chain then it sounds like an ice pick almost everytime, always.

Im sure with an FRFR this is the greatest thing in the world, and yes the Fractal is "one of the greatest things in the world." Its incredible for sure.
 
fcs101 said:
Found it! I had recently watched this video because I am interested in maybe using a powered cab in the future. This guy nails what people really have concerns with when you say you're hearing a mic'd amp (okay, so technically a cab, but that's the language we use). It's really more about the feel.

Watch from about 4:30 to 5:00.

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For the 30 days when I had my HX Stomp (the final week was when the FM3 arrived), I watched this video a couple times.

This guy is pretty cool, he should definitely "review" a FM3.... that might... blow his mind.
 
Xcdchdchjjf said:
This is a simple and interesting point. However what if I said "I love my tone coming out of my Fender Deluxe."
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Yep, you can as you read the responses above. I've gotta say that I love playing through an FRFR as opposed to monitors. Sitting right in front of it allows you to get a different feel and you can adjust the volume as needed. Thinking through that and coupled with Admin's response above has started to lead me down the road of possibly using something like a power cab (ala Line 6). I believe related to your post is my despising playing through headphones.
 
Admin M@ said:
PS: I've been wanting to do this for days:

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Is this Cliff himself? If so im embarassed by any of my posts. I wonder if a small "HX stomp" sized pedal with JUST the FX from Fractal for like 400-500 bucks would sell 20million units or something. Since all the Fractal effects are better than... pretty much everything.

Or... Half the power of the FM3.

Sure Fractal is having noooo problems... with the sales clearly.... FM9 ordered our for another year or two.

Would be cool though to see a small Fractal FX box on everyones board in the world...
 
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