What is the deal with FRFR cab makers?

[Scooterjohn]

Why is a full PA non-ideal? Good speakers are good speakers, whether they’re for “PA” or “FRFR”, which basically means they’re suitable for accurate sound reproduction, which is exactly what we want for use with a modeler.

The Wiki says:


If you have powered speakers, give them a try. If they have compensation curves built-in, use the one that is the flattest. If they’re passive and you have a neutral power amp then use that combination, just use as flat of a response as you can get.

Seriously, there’s nothing magical about “FRFR” speakers, they are just neutral. Beyond that you want something that is loud enough for your needs, and if you’re using them live you probably want something that is easily carried around.

I don’t have any powered speakers, and my mains are too big to use just for guitar. Of course it’s possible, but they’re powered via heavy power amps in a large rack. When it’s my band, that’s one thing…but when it’s somebody else’s, I travel fairly light these days. Lately, it’s been a Mesa combo and an FX8. I haven’t looked at the weight of the EV monitor yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close to, or lighter than the Mesa.

I’m sure at some point I’ll set up the PA for curiosity’s sake. I sold my 15” monitors awhile back, but they were passive anyway, and that was yet another rack.

 

[chrisjnyc]

I appreciate the input, sincerely... but the RCF and CLR work perfectly for me. As long as they're working! I guess I should also say that I don't mind that they need repair. When I say they've had hundreds and hundreds of hours on them, I mean gig level, running for six hours at a time, over and over for years. I expect they'll need fixing from time to time. It's that (in the case of the CLR) you can't get them fixed and I'm not near enough to a competent "generic" repair facility to let someone else take a shot at it that annoys me so badly. The RCF is on its way to NJ (1600+ miles from me) for repair, so shipping will be a large portion of the cost. But at least I can get it repaired! For years, I knew of no one that did factory repairs on RCF gear.

I have tons of guitar cabinets and power amps. I did that route for a time. It does sound great! I'm really not looking to go back, as I may as well just go 4CM with an amp if I have to lug an Eric Johnson rig everywhere I go. I envision my future rig getting more portable, so I have to have a wedge or two to fit the plan.

Again, I do appreciate the suggestions, and I do know there are alternatives. I've just found a solution that perfectly suits me that I am trying to maintain, and would be able to if simple repair facilities were maintained by these companies! So, if the RCF can be fixed, I'll be good for a while, and likely will buy the EV speaker to start testing for future options. If the cost of repair is too high, here I come EV!!

The RCF and CLR cant be that perfect if you cant them fixed, and you are looking for a new speaker

 

[Rick]

The RCF and CLR cant be that perfect if you cant them fixed, and you are looking for a new speaker

That, my friend, is the whole point to this thread! Perfect, if….

I’ll be reporting how the RCF repair comes out.

The CLR, I’m sure, can be repaired. I’m going to sell it with full disclosure of issues, and put that money towards testing the EV. If the buyer has access to a electronics repair shop, my guess is it will only require a simple parts swap.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I travel fairly light these days. Lately, it’s been a Mesa combo and an FX8. I haven’t looked at the weight of the EV monitor yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s close to, or lighter than the Mesa.

Here’s the dimensions and weight for the EV

 

[Rick]

Here’s the dimensions and weight for the EV

View attachment 115681

Nice and compact. I like that!

 

[Fizz]

What ever happened to that Jay Mitchell project he posted about on the gear page a couple years back?

I want something compact and stereo with clr like sound.

I do like the sound of the Bose S1 pro for being compact and light weight, the sound is good but not perfect. It does seem dependable.

He seems to like he might be hard to work with.. maybe no one wants to work with him.

 

[Dave Merrill]

He seems to like he might be hard to work with.. maybe no one wants to work with him.

Might be part of it.

But also, manufacturing and customer support are different businesses than speaker design. If I'd designed a speaker everyone loved, but reports from the field included a bunch of reliability issues, inability to source replacement parts or get them serviced, etc, I'm not at all sure I'd be super eager to have another go.

 

[greiswig]

I'll just offer up here: if anyone needs to try out a PXM-12MP and they're in the Portland, OR area, hit me up. We'll figure something out.

 

[Randalljax]

I'll just offer up here: if anyone needs to try out a PXM-12MP and they're in the Portland, OR area, hit me up. We'll figure something out.

They look really cool and honestly probably the closest thing to the neo CLR the Redsound MF looks great but I would guess a bit more tuned like a guitar cab say Freidman ASC10

 

[Sorenspete]

my CLR amp failed for like 3rd or 4th time, sent it in, they told me this time it would be like 200 dollars to repair, I'm just not inclined to send anymore money, so I have a cab sitting there with no amp in it, lol.

This is astonishing.

 

[Scooterjohn]

I had the EV site up on my pc upstairs earlier, and having wondered about the weight, immediately went up to check. Yep, a bit less than the Mesa’s 56 lbs. I’m guessing that the FX8 and the FM9 are roughly the same size, so If I have to use the FM9 with the Mesa for a bit before I get the EV, my load in will be the same.
Thanks for posting the weight, though.

 

[ropas2]

But also, manufacturing and customer support are different businesses than speaker design.

He owns his own loudspeaker manufacturing company. It has been in business for more than 30 years and does not sell products to retail purchasers.

The CLR design was done on a consulting basis for a client company he does not own. He has no control over its QC or customer support and ceased all involvement with the client more than five years ago.

 

[scorch]

This entire thread reminds me of why I went with passive speakers early on. I have an early pair of Atomic CLR non-NEO passive speakers and more recently a pair of Xitone passive speakers with the Eminence coaxial installed.

Ran them with a Carvin 1504 stereo amp for 8 years maybe. No issues of any kind.

Replaced the Carvin with a Crown XLS 2502 recently. The Crown is lighter., quieter, and more powerful than the Carvin.

The Carvin is my P.A. backup.

I've also driven the four coaxial cabs with a Fryette 2/50/2 tube amp. I haven't done that in a while as it just wasn't necessary, the S.S. amps handled the job flawlessly. The Fryette at volume would begin to distort while the two S.S.amps have miles of headroom and I have never gotten them even close to distorting. The amp block and cab I.R.'s do that job just fine.

 

[Rick]

Update:

It’s looking like the repair of the RCF May run nearly $1000. I’m waiting on final word. There is some good and bad in this, and a bit of disclosure to make in fairness to RCF.

1. The Repair

Basically, I’d be getting the cabinet back with everything else, speaker and amp, replaced. This makes it an essentially new unit that looks used. The price sounds high, and is, but is still half the cost of a new one and less than $100 from any other good option I’m considering. So the good is I would have a speaker that, when new, handled 5 straight years of heavy use, including hundreds of gigs and many rehearsals, and hundreds more home practicing sessions. The bad is there is no cheap out. Repairs could take months, as the inevitable “waiting on parts from Italy” was cited.

As a note, I saw one listed used this week: $1800. I throw that out to give context to my considerations.

2. The Disclosure

RCF told me the speaker failed from “water damage.” I told them that was incorrect. The speaker was never so much as rained on, though it did see a lot of outdoor gig use here on the Texas Gulf coast. He sent me pics showing clear corrosion on the interior components, which they surmise contributed to the failure.

So, this is a two pronged sword. I did not give the speaker any special treatment. It got used, put up, and shipped/stored with the rest of the gear when not used. On the one hand, this apparently contributed to the failure. On the other, my other gear has not corroded and failed in the same environment. I’m not sure it would have helped to store it in with my guitars, as whatever humidity got inside it was already inside, but it’s a thought. In my opinion, and considering the uses, it should not have failed in this manner.

The lesson? Whichever speaker I use will have to be stored in my house when not in use in hopes of avoiding buildup of humidity inside. I don’t know that it’ll help, but it can’t hurt.

Sooooo, I’m still in the process. Completely unsurprised to report I still have no further contact from Atomic. The EV is looking pretty good right about now.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

He sent me pics showing clear corrosion on the interior components, which they surmise contributed to the failure.

I’ve seen that sort of corrosion. Ugh. Yeah, keep the speaker indoors when it’s not being used. Or spray it with fresh water periodically.

Here it would probably be full of dust and black widow spiders.

 

[Dave Merrill]

Update:

It’s looking like the repair of the RCF May run nearly $1000. I’m waiting on final word. There is some good and bad in this, and a bit of disclosure to make in fairness to RCF.

1. The Repair

Basically, I’d be getting the cabinet back with everything else, speaker and amp, replaced. This makes it an essentially new unit that looks used. The price sounds high, and is, but is still half the cost of a new one and less than $100 from any other good option I’m considering. So the good is I would have a speaker that, when new, handled 5 straight years of heavy use, including hundreds of gigs and many rehearsals, and hundreds more home practicing sessions. The bad is there is no cheap out. Repairs could take months, as the inevitable “waiting on parts from Italy” was cited.

As a note, I saw one listed used this week: $1800. I throw that out to give context to my considerations.

2. The Disclosure

RCF told me the speaker failed from “water damage.” I told them that was incorrect. The speaker was never so much as rained on, though it did see a lot of outdoor gig use here on the Texas Gulf coast. He sent me pics showing clear corrosion on the interior components, which they surmise contributed to the failure.

So, this is a two pronged sword. I did not give the speaker any special treatment. It got used, put up, and shipped/stored with the rest of the gear when not used. On the one hand, this apparently contributed to the failure. On the other, my other gear has not corroded and failed in the same environment. I’m not sure it would have helped to store it in with my guitars, as whatever humidity got inside it was already inside, but it’s a thought. In my opinion, and considering the uses, it should not have failed in this manner.

The lesson? Whichever speaker I use will have to be stored in my house when not in use in hopes of avoiding buildup of humidity inside. I don’t know that it’ll help, but it can’t hurt.

Sooooo, I’m still in the process. Completely unsurprised to report I still have no further contact from Atomic. The EV is looking pretty good right about now.

Ok that's weird.

If the rest of your gear's been ok, to the point that you didn't notice anything visible anywhere, it's odd that that one piece developed enough corrosion to die from it. Taking out both amp and speaker even, though I guess a dying amp could take out the speaker. Ugh.

I've heard great things about RCF, but I'm not at all sure I'd re-up for over twice the price of a PXM.

 

[greiswig]

I had that RCF for awhile. I liked it, but from what I remember it wasn't any better than the PXM's that I have now, and it was heavier. I sold it and got a CLR, which was supposed to be perfect at the time. I didn't like the CLR that much: I think it was the tweeter that I didn't care for.

The PXM having storeable settings for the DSP gives it the edge in functionality IMO.

That is really interesting about the corrosion, though. What components corroded? I've actually had speaker cones mold up here in Oregon from being stored in a moist place, but never had an outright failure.

 

[Rick]

Ok that's weird.

If the rest of your gear's been ok, to the point that you didn't notice anything visible anywhere, it's odd that that one piece developed enough corrosion to die from it. Taking out both amp and speaker even, though I guess a dying amp could take out the speaker. Ugh.

I've heard great things about RCF, but I'm not at all sure I'd re-up for over twice the price of a PXM.

It’s pretty much $1k or thereabouts any way I go, even buying a new EV. I can’t complain about the performance or service of the original RCF, although I would think a speaker in that price range and intended for pro use would hold up to real-world environmental conditions a bit better. It’s not unusual, though, for pro PA gear to be cycled out in less time, so I have to temper my expectations a tad. I’m not gigging these days like I was in that speaker’s heyday, so anything I get will likely hold up longer. I have seen, in fairness, JBL SR series mains corrode when not dried thoroughly after high humidity gigs, but that was on the exposed exterior. This was on the inside of a “sealed” cabinet. It is odd.

Anyway, it is what it is and I’m just using my Presonus speakers in the meantime. I’m seriously thinking about testing the 328Ai as a guitar monitor. That might be a dark horse candidate for a solution.

 

[OrganicZed]

My guess is that the components that got hot during use collected a bunch of condensation upon cooling.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

It’s pretty much $1k or thereabouts any way I go, even buying a new EV. I can’t complain about the performance or service of the original RCF, although I would think a speaker in that price range and intended for pro use would hold up to real-world environmental conditions a bit better. It’s not unusual, though, for pro PA gear to be cycled out in less time, so I have to temper my expectations a tad. I’m not gigging these days like I was in that speaker’s heyday, so anything I get will likely hold up longer. I have seen, in fairness, JBL SR series mains corrode when not dried thoroughly after high humidity gigs, but that was on the exposed exterior. This was on the inside of a “sealed” cabinet. It is odd.

Anyway, it is what it is and I’m just using my Presonus speakers in the meantime. I’m seriously thinking about testing the 328Ai as a guitar monitor. That might be a dark horse candidate for a solution.

I’m sorry but you are dealing with this. It’s a major PITA.

I’m the sort that expects when I’ve paid more than the average it better work more than the average.

Things wear out over time, sure, but it still chaps my as* if I don’t get what I perceive as a reasonable life from something. That’s based partly on what I paid, and partly on the construction of the unit, which is adjusted by my experience from years of buying and using equipment.

I’m happy to wear something out, or to find it needs to be re-tubed or re-capped, because, if my choice of the gear was smart enough, it will be years down the road and the repairs will last for a long time.