What is the deal with FRFR cab makers?

Rick

Rick

Axe-Master
Holy cow… was looking into a Xitone because I remembered people raving about them in the past, and I’m stuck in “Atomic Purgatory” looking to get a minor issue in my CLR repaired. Came back and searched the forum on Xitone and read through the thread on all the issues people are having even getting cabs they’ve already paid for! Wow. “Atomic CLR, the Sequel.” A past issue with RCF didn’t go any better. I had an NX12SMA making odd pop noises every now and again and couldn’t find anyone who could do RCF-approved repairs on it. It just seems to me that if it has a power amp in it, then it’s intended to be thrown away when it breaks. And it will break! All of these high-quality, expensive brands do it and you’re left high and dry when they do. How about just making OEM replacement amps readily and economically available? Nope, not even that.

Make excuses if you want, but the repeated ghosting on your customers is poor business and reflects on these proprietors personally. Good people don’t do that, plain and simple.

I‘m with everyone here on wishing FAS made a guitar cab for their modelers. But they don’t, so what’s the best way forward? Are we at a spot where you just plan to drop $1k or more on a powered cab every three years and throw the old one on the scrap heap? I am sure that there’ll be responses saying “I’ve gigged my cab 20,000 continuous nights, never turning it off even when it was in the trailer, and it still works like new!” I’m happy for you if that’s you, but realize that you’re among the blessed few.

By the way, I’m not crying and wailing about it. I’m seriously looking for the best option on all-in-one powered FRFR guitar cabs going into the future. Powered PA cabs? They seem to hold up better, but is that the best option we have? Home made cabs might be a thing. I know you guys have ideas, and I’m not alone in the frustration and disappointment over the great sounding but poorly supported options we’ve had so far.

I hear a lot of “modelers are taking over” and “tube amps are a thing of the past” statements, yet I have several tube amps making great music today at 30 to 60 years old! And if something were to break, it’s easily repaired. I can’t get 60 months out of a FRFR without issues, and can’t get them repaired when they do break. And now I read you can hardly get a powered cab delivered even when you’ve already paid for it. Someone has to be doing it better. A level of resiliency in FRFRs will really move modeling forward, but the amplification isn’t keeping up with the modelers. I really want to stay small with the rig, and not go back to racks, amps, and cabs. FM9 —> FRFR --> done.

What’s out there? Anything on the horizon?
 
The EV PXM-12MP is a nice solution that a number of people are using. I wanted something that sounded great, was small enough to easily carry in one hand, was repairable and the company stood behind, and could be used in front of me for a personal speaker, or behind me like a backline.

Electro Voice is a big player in the speaker and FOH market, and their parent company, Dynacord, is even bigger in that market.

RED SOUND, out of Italy, makes two systems; I had the ELIS.8 speakers and really liked them. QSC has their K2 series; a friend has the QSC K2.12 cabinets and they sound great.

“FRFR” is a newer marketing term of speakers that have been around for years. The Wiki explains:

FRFR systems include:
  • Studio monitors
  • Active (powered) FRFR cabs and wedges
  • Passive FRFR cabs and wedges, powered by a separate neutral amplifier
  • High-quality headphones
  • High-quality P.A.
Click to expand...
A good quality wedge monitor or FOH speaker is a great bet. They’re made to take abuse and be repaired IF they break.
 
I know there are better options coming. It’s not even “how do we make it sound good?” as it was back when I came into modeling for guitar. The sound has been achieved. What’s it going to take to couple that with a suitable business infrastructure before, during, and after the sale/warranty? I’m talking Fractal Audio Systems level experience for the, well, audio systems for your Fractal.

I’m looking for the positive. We’re all aware of the bad side of it.

@Greg Ferguson - spot on as always, but I have to say that the coaxial speaker option in the guitar-focused “FRFR” cabs I’ve used just sound nice on stage. I’ve thought of just diving all-in on Meyer Sound gear, but haven’t had the financial nerve and money at the same time! Still, it matters enough to spend what it takes, which is why I use FAS gear to start with. It seems to me that the perfect thing is still just out of reach.
 
Last edited:
jlynnb1 said:
my CLR amp failed for like 3rd or 4th time, sent it in, they told me this time it would be like 200 dollars to repair, I'm just not inclined to send anymore money, so I have a cab sitting there with no amp in it, lol.
Click to expand...

This is the thing I hear over and over. The DSP in that amp is supposed to be a big reason it sounds like it does but I’d be willing to stick something else in it if I could find something that fit!

Greg Ferguson said:
I don’t. There are many other bigger companies in that market that make suitable solutions that work extremely well with the modelers.
Click to expand...

Everyone has a right to their opinion, of course. Other bigger companies also make modelers, but FAS kicks their butt on every level. If Cliff ever elected to do it, I don’t see him dipping a toe in the water. He’d do it right or not at all.
 
I had a CLR Neo. Sounded good but it failed and needed repair. Having removed the guts it appeared to be shall we say "inexpensively" made. I sold it. I also had a Xitone. Much better made IMO and it did not fail. However, I sold it too because I have found what is - for me - a better solution. I run the FM3 into a Quilter Tone Block 202 > a 1 x 12" cab with a Copperback NEO. The Tone Block has an FRFR setting and the Copperback is a very transparent speaker. The Quilter and cab are very lightweight and also act as a back up in case the FM3 goes down. I have not tried the FM3 with a tube amp, but if and when I acquire one some day, I plan to give that a try.
 
Rick said:
but I have to say that the coaxial speaker option in the guitar-focused “FRFR” cabs I’ve used just sound nice on stage.
Click to expand...
I’ve used my EVs often without any FOH reinforcement. I’d have a friend sit in on my system and walk around listening and with the speakers acting as a backline they sounded great everywhere. The coaxial speakers firing forward are an asset in my opinion.

When I run into FOH it’s icing on the cake. I don’t care if the room can hear me then, that’s the engineer’s problem, and I’ll have my own stereo bubble surrounding me.

Rick said:
I’ve thought of just diving all-in on Meyer Sound gear, but haven’t had the financial nerve and money at the same time!
Click to expand...
Really expensive to purchase and expensive to repair. A friend of mine runs FOH, and manages pro touring rigs, and had some that were dead. He asked his boss if he could have them, got approval, then pulled strings at Meyers and got the replacement boards for cheap, so he now has two Meyer FOH cabs for his own personal use. Very few of us can afford the entry fee, and even fewer have the contacts if they break. I love their sound and would like to get my hands on them, but repairing them would be prohibitive so I’m happy with something less “professional”, if EV isn’t already pro quality.
 
All these small niche companies making PA speakers and selling them as guitar modeling monitors, do not have the infrastructure, or experience to keep at it long term obviously. Atomic have horrible build quality issues as well as non existent customer service. Xitone has obviously also bitten off more than they can chew.
The best option at this point is to buy some quality floor monitors and or PA mains. Stick with a large established company that has a proven track record of making quality products and standing behind them,like EV, Turbosound, or Meyers and be done with it. That's what your audience is gonna be listening through anyways, so might as well just stick with it IMO.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
I’ve used my EVs often without any FOH reinforcement. I’d have a friend sit in on my system and walk around listening and with the speakers acting as a backline they sounded great everywhere. The coaxial speakers firing forward are an asset in my opinion.

When I run into FOH it’s icing on the cake. I don’t care if the room can hear me then, that’s the engineer’s problem, and I’ll have my own stereo bubble surrounding me.


Really expensive to purchase and expensive to repair. A friend of mine runs FOH, and manages pro touring rigs, and had some that were dead. He asked his boss if he could have them, got approval, then pulled strings at Meyers and got the replacement boards for cheap, so he now has two Meyer FOH cabs for his own personal use. Very few of us can afford the entry fee, and even fewer have the contacts if they break. I love their sound and would like to get my hands on them, but repairing them would be prohibitive so I’m happy with something less “professional”, if EV isn’t already pro quality.
Click to expand...
Based on your comments, the EVs are on my check out list. I’m open to whatever works.
 
I think I was the first one here to try the EV PXM-12MP's, and the first to call out the distortion "tail" on fading notes in this forum. I have to say, as soon as I contacted EV's Tech Support, they responded. They asked for a video, which I sent. They then told me they were discussing "with engineering" what the problem might be. Within a week, I had an RMA and shipping label for the whole unit, although I'd offered to pull the power amp out and send it separately. Within 2 weeks after that, I had a new unit and they had apparently found and fixed the issue.

Lots of other people here apparently also ran into the problem, and were able to get them to fix it in a reasonable amount of time. Moreover, they fixed the problem for new units completely. I have two of these now that both sound great.

As difficult as it is for a small company to pull together and do tech support well, I think it's also pretty hard in a large company where complaints can get lost in the noise. So my hat is off to Electrovoice for doing right!
 
That thread convinced me to look into the PXM 12. And then seeing the other old school pros using them too. I am definitely also going that route soon. They will double as nice small powered PA tops too.
 
Rick said:
Everyone has a right to their opinion, of course. Other bigger companies also make modelers, but FAS kicks their butt on every level. If Cliff ever elected to do it, I don’t see him dipping a toe in the water. He’d do it right or not at all.
Click to expand...

Fractal and Atomic had some sort of partnership back in the day and then they split off from one another. This was years before my first Fractal unit so I didn't follow what happened there. But I'm sure something about that experience informed Cliff's decision to stay out of FRFR. That, and it's a crowded, low-margin space already.

This could be a cool segment to for DIY. Dayton Audio makes Xitone's power amps and they allow you to tweak the EQ curve on your computer via USB. Beyond that, you just need wood, a speaker, a few little knickknacks (handles, rubber feet, tolex, ect) and you've got yourself a cabinet. We could then geek out together comparing different building techniques, power amp specs, ect.
 
I’d bet that if you got a couple of Meyer wedges or cabs, you’d never look back.

Thanks
Pauly

Rick said:
I know there are better options coming. It’s not even “how do we make it sound good?” as it was back when I came into modeling for guitar. The sound has been achieved. What’s it going to take to couple that with a suitable business infrastructure before, during, and after the sale/warranty? I’m talking Fractal Audio Systems level experience for the, well, audio systems for your Fractal.

I’m looking for the positive. We’re all aware of the bad side of it.

@Greg Ferguson - spot on as always, but I have to say that the coaxial speaker option in the guitar-focused “FRFR” cabs I’ve used just sound nice on stage. I’ve thought of just diving all-in on Meyer Sound gear, but haven’t had the financial nerve and money at the same time! Still, it matters enough to spend what it takes, which is why I use FAS gear to start with. It seems to me that the perfect thing is still just out of reach.
Click to expand...
 
I hear ya, @Rick! I have been lucky so far with speakers staying functional (Carvin, QSC, EV PXM), however the latest acquisition used off of Reverb, a Friedman ASC-10, really made me appreciate how well something can indeed be built.

I received it with the shoddiest packing job I've ever seen. A way too big box and then randomly thrown in some plastic packing material and brown paper. Miraculously it survived without any damage. The literal tank. This is how it looked when I opened the box.

1674767321299.png
 
I think the lack of a dependable plate amp that is affordable, and repairable is preventing anyone with business sense from entering the FRFR space.

And for the price of a pair of boutique FRFRs and a matrix (ish) amp. You would be close to Meyer level PRO stuff.. DbAudiotechnic, EAW, ..etc
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom