Well you got one less person getting the axe fx II

[Scott Peterson]

Scotty you do a great job. I agree 100% with what you said. However, we're talking about perception and reality here. Your reality is right on. But the perception people have is not illogical. I get that you don't work for Fractal. But regardless of what you or Fractal state what your roles as moderators are, the moderators most definitely appear to a lot of folks to be at least in part representatives of Fractal. On many manufacturers forums the mods/admins are actually employees.

There is absolutely no question that a lot of posts have been pulled, locked, etc. Only a moderator/admin can do that. The fact that in most cases nobody knows who performed the administrative action or sometimes even why it was done makes it pretty frustrating to a lot of folks. It has left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.

Tim,

One thing I can tell you from owning/running/moderating forums for well over decade is that you cannot control perception.

All I can do is speak in reality based terms. I don't care to try to shape perception because you cannot do so, but I will continue to a) use my real name; b) state my opinion whether it is popular or not; c) be respectful doing so; d) ask the same of others.

What folks are now focusing on in this thread is ripping on current/past moderation. I cannot speak for the entire moderator team. I cannot speak for Fractal Audio. I am *just* a moderator here. I can speak for myself and my actions as a moderator. I do not, have not, and will not edit for content. I cannot say it more clearly than that.

I do not, have not, and will not moderate on threads I am involved in unless there is an obvious and grievous breach of the forum's given rules.

I do not, have not, and will not moderate on folks I have personal issues with based on forum exchanges and will always call in an objective moderator/admin to take a look without coloring their perception when doing so.

I do not care to change anyone's perceptions or beliefs about me or my actions. I can only stand behind my integrity and history with my real name because I personally need to look in the mirror every night and know I've done the best I can at what I do. Sounds maudlin and simplistic if not idealistic - but that's how I conduct my whole life.

I don't subscribe to the gamesmanship that is now commonplace on forums to further one's e-cred by stirring folks up and playing tag team by passive-aggressive cronies. When I see it, I'll call it out. Period.

 

[hippietim]

I am not 'dismissing' anything, that's putting words in my mouth.

Sorry but when you tell someone their reasoning for making a conclusion is silly you are being dismissive. Just because you say you're not doesn't mean you're not

I am saying that if you want to speak of something, at least try it first. Don't try "A" and conclude "C" with the assumption that A = B. As someone that has tried the Standard/Ultra/II - the II is a different thing. Redone modeling, totally different hardware. Is there some crossover? Yes. But the Ultra is not a "slightly minus II" any more than a II is a "Ultra+". The assumption that they are is inaccurate.

The Ultra does not equal what the II does or how it does it. They are different beasts.

This is a matter of opinion. The II is an evolutionary step. It is not a different beast IMO. Better? Probably. Radically different? Not in my opinion. The modeling has been reworked but it's not completely different. The hardware is different but it is not massively different. To me it's like comparing a computer from a few years ago to a new one. It can have a new OS, completely different CPU, chipset, different harddrive bus, etc. To an engineer or computer geek these may seem like different beasts but to most folks the new one is just faster and has more bells and whistles.

Your other points: Is the II expensive? Yes. I never said it was not. I am not discussing cost, rig building, sales, Fractal response, or any other 'off putting'. You are.

The OP was talking about the II as if his experience with the Ultra versus a tube based rig defined the II. My point is try the II before you throw that out there. The rest of this is gamesmanship.

The reason I mentioned that stuff is because those are all reasons why it is pretty reasonable to use past experience with the Ultra to make a decision about a future purchase. Heck, that's what I did. The Ultra is kick ass so I got the II. If you didn't love the Ultra, it is not unreasonable to conclude that you won't love the II either.

Tim - you know me. I'm not poking my nose in here to do anything other than to shine a light on folks mixing all sorts of malarkey into a negative atmosphere to make a point. The point is simple - before you decide what a piece of gear can or cannot do, try it first. NOTHING more.

That's easier said than done. There is no place to try one. And to try one out "properly", you need a bunch of other expensive gear. And even trying one in a store is not sufficient. I've been totally stoked in the store with many things only to get them home and realize otherwise.

 

[zenaxe]

Maybe now that you saved all the time you would have spent tweaking with the Axe2, you can use it to work on figuring out how to use paragraphs and format text! That would be WIN-WIN, baby!

 

[Scott Peterson]

When I said the community is overly sensitive I was not just referring to this thread. A number of folks have given the Axe-FX online community a reputation for being dismissive, over zealous, disrespectful, and just generally hyper sensitive to someone saying anything but positive things about their beloved Axe-FX. It is WAY more that 2-3 people that carry on like this. And it's not just here. They're on TGP and several other forums. And they are every bit as annoying as the extremely vocal folks in the other various camps: tubes uber alles , <insert brand here> fanboiz, <insert OS here> lovers/haters, etc. The Axe-FX threads seem to always turn into retarded little holy wars like the Klon, Dumble, etc. threads.

And the irony of my participation in this debate is not lost on me

I don't buy into any of that sort of gamesmanship. I use something, I post about it.

I can only speak from personal experience, and frankly I hold others to that standard. It is not the norm, and it is accepted practice to now espouse one's opinions as fact even if you have zero experience about whatever subject you are talking about. I hold things to a different standard.

I don't subscribe to the 'camps' theory and the folks that do create them in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I own and use the Fractal. I post about it and discuss it.

I have owned and used a Klon (actually two of them). I think it's a great pedal. I think the whole uproar over it and the current prices are silly.

I have played through one Dumble and I didn't like it. I don't like them, it's not a sort of timbre I find agreeable or enjoyable. I don't like sorts of music that Dumble sorts of tones work with as a preference. I don't chase that Dragon.

So am I a Fractal Fan Boy/Klon Fan Boy/Dumber Hater now? If so, then I am a Melancon/Rivera/Bogner/Guytron/THD/Matchless/Dr.Z/Line6/Thorn/Hamer/ and so on fan boy? It's all just labeling and it's BS. I look at things individually. I like some Rivera amps, dislike others. What does that say about me? Am I a Rivera Fan Boy/Hater Boy?

It's silly to play such generalization games and that's how this is played now. Sorry, I do not agree with it.

Talk about what you know. Discuss/ask/question about what you do not. Do not post strong opinions about things you have not tried. Those are my standards. Just the way I am.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Sorry but when you tell someone their reasoning for making a conclusion is silly you are being dismissive. Just because you say you're not doesn't mean you're not



This is a matter of opinion. The II is an evolutionary step. It is not a different beast IMO. Better? Probably. Radically different? Not in my opinion. The modeling has been reworked but it's not completely different. The hardware is different but it is not massively different. To me it's like comparing a computer from a few years ago to a new one. It can have a new OS, completely different CPU, chipset, different harddrive bus, etc. To an engineer or computer geek these may seem like different beasts but to most folks the new one is just faster and has more bells and whistles.



The reason I mentioned that stuff is because those are all reasons why it is pretty reasonable to use past experience with the Ultra to make a decision about a future purchase. Heck, that's what I did. The Ultra is kick ass so I got the II. If you didn't love the Ultra, it is not unreasonable to conclude that you won't love the II either.



That's easier said than done. There is no place to try one. And to try one out "properly", you need a bunch of other expensive gear. And even trying one in a store is not sufficient. I've been totally stoked in the store with many things only to get them home and realize otherwise.

All true.

But read your last paragraph. That's the meat of the actual issue and no one needs any of the moderator critique/fan boy/other BS that is also added to the conversation. In fact your last sentence could be a post from me almost to the word... so you do agree with me after all. LOL. "I've been totally stoked in the store with many things only to get them home and realize otherwise." You HAVE to try it out in person and indepth - the Fractal gear is too deep to judge from an hour or a short demo or a clip or reading posts on a forum. Period.

Had the OP stated his opinion and asked about the II, no issue from most anyone. That's not how he played it; and it's edited now by the OP because that's not how he played it.

Read my posts on this thread in the first few points I made.

And sorry, it is silly to dismiss something without trying it. If the word silly is the sticking point for you, then chose another. It's my opinion and it's one I stand behind and believe in.

Use of the Ultra is indeed informing of what you get in the II, but spend more time with the II and you'll find that this is a different thing. Worth the money? Depends on the person. I say it is. My opinion. The OP might say it is not given his purposes. But it'd be far better for him to try one himself rather than listen to you or me and state it as fact.

I do not understand, nor will I (so save the effort) how saying you have to try it before you know is silly. Sorry. I have kids. They don't like certain foods. I follow the same logic with them. Try it first. Works for me. From what you posted, you actually agree with me. Which you probably hate.

 

[toasterdude]

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. It is completely valid to dismiss the II based on his experience with the Ultra. And it is bordering on disrespectful to call his reasoning silly. If you don't like the Ultra, it is perfectly reasonable to think the II is not necessarily going to blow your mind as well. They are not different beasts IMO. The II shows more promise but it's not such a huge departure from the Ultra that it's a complete game changer (again all IMO). I've been contemplating sending my II back to be honest.

And you must consider the cost. The II is expensive! And if you want one now it's even more expensive. And that's just the processor. Getting a full rig adds another 40-60%. That's a lot of money. There is no place to try one. Getting one for 15 days is not sufficient unless you have the rest of the rig handy to try it with. So using one's past experience with a unit that has one of the same CPUs, most of the same features, made by the same company, etc. is completely reasonable and not silly at all.

Then there's the whole way that the sales have been handled and the way Fractal has been responding to folks. Certainly folks on the forum were over the top at times but the way Fractal has responded has been unprofessional and disrespectful at times. It has been very off-putting.

Yep. Are we saying that people weren't ripping POD HDbbefore it even shipped becausebofvexperience with previous pods? I never liked the sound of engls or treadplates. I don't have to try them all to know i don't want one.

I have a II and an ultra which gives me less reason to try a engl. Same as the OP has a M4 which he seems to really dig. Why should he deal with the overly complex buying process for a II if he is happy?

He is still using his axe for FX like some pros do, so what exactly us the beef?

 

[mark_melling]

This thread has been played out countless times, in countless forums, with countless products..with the end result being always the same.

So until the next one arrives i bid this thread adieu.

:mrgreen

 

[hippietim]

All true.

But read your last paragraph. That's the meat of the actual issue and no one needs any of the moderator critique/fan boy/other BS that is also added to the conversation. In fact your last sentence could be a post from me almost to the word... so you do agree with me after all. LOL. "I've been totally stoked in the store with many things only to get them home and realize otherwise." You HAVE to try it out in person and indepth - the Fractal gear is too deep to judge from an hour or a short demo or a clip or reading posts on a forum. Period.

Had the OP stated his opinion and asked about the II, no issue from most anyone. That's not how he played it; and it's edited now by the OP because that's not how he played it.

Read my posts on this thread in the first few points I made.

And sorry, it is silly to dismiss something without trying it. If the word silly is the sticking point for you, then chose another. It's my opinion and it's one I stand behind and believe in.

Use of the Ultra is indeed informing of what you get in the II, but spend more time with the II and you'll find that this is a different thing. Worth the money? Depends on the person. I say it is. My opinion. The OP might say it is not given his purposes. But it'd be far better for him to try one himself rather than listen to you or me and state it as fact.

I do not understand, nor will I (so save the effort) how saying you have to try it before you know is silly. Sorry. I have kids. They don't like certain foods. I follow the same logic with them. Try it first. Works for me. From what you posted, you actually agree with me. Which you probably hate.

I agree that you have to try it first to be absolutely certain. No hate there. My point was simply that trying it is a very expensive proposition. So combining past experience with the unit that the II was derived from and the cost factor, it is very reasonable to conclude that the II is not a good purchase. And a 15 day trial isn't necessarily sufficient. The OP never made a qualitative assertion about the performance of the II - just that he had some compelling reasons not gamble with $2200-2600.

I don't need to try out the latest variation of every evolutionary piece of gear to be reasonably certain about whether or not I'm going to like it. I don't need to plug into the latest variation of a Rectifier head to know that it's probably not for me. Just like I didn't need to try the Line 6 M series pedals to be reasonably certain I was going to have a blast with them.

I do not need to try every variety of wierd ass vegetable to know I'm not going to like it. And don't get me started on sushi - that's just nasty. IOW, you're kids are right.

Oh and I am totally selling my Klon now. I have a pedal by Stigtronics that sounds identical it and the prices for a real Klon are stupid high.

 

[Scott Peterson]

I agree that you have to try it first to be absolutely certain. No hate there. My point was simply that trying it is a very expensive proposition. So combining past experience with the unit that the II was derived from and the cost factor, it is very reasonable to conclude that the II is not a good purchase. And a 15 day trial isn't necessarily sufficient. The OP never made a qualitative assertion about the performance of the II - just that he had some compelling reasons not gamble with $2200-2600.

I don't need to try out the latest variation of every evolutionary piece of gear to be reasonably certain about whether or not I'm going to like it. I don't need to plug into the latest variation of a Rectifier head to know that it's probably not for me. Just like I didn't need to try the Line 6 M series pedals to be reasonably certain I was going to have a blast with them.

I do not need to try every variety of wierd ass vegetable to know I'm not going to like it. And don't get me started on sushi - that's just nasty. IOW, you're kids are right.

Oh and I am totally selling my Klon now. I have a pedal by Stigtronics that sounds identical it and the prices for a real Klon are stupid high.

Tim - note the OP is edited by the OP. Your version of it is not how this thread started.

The proposition you note now? Completely valid. Good discussion topic; but discussing a topic means actually discussing the topic. Not the ancillary platform pontifical statements made about moderators, moderation, sales, frustration with said ancillary topics, etc, etc. etc..

There's no hate or emotion on any of this from me. Folks always assume I am angry, but I'm actually not angry at all. Never any 'hate'. There's gamesmanship at play; post something - get reaction - edit post - play the 'who, me?" card = profit. The whole page and a half or so of ripping moderators and moderation and then even your jumping off at moderation and so is simply tangents that do not to be mentioned or in play.

About generalizing and veggies: If you find a given pepper too spicy, are all peppers too spicy for you?

FWIW, I sold my Klon and bought a PRS. Imagine that. Crazy world.

 

[Scott Peterson]

/moderator hat on

I removed the personal slamming/antagonizing from this thread.

We do not allow personal slams on this board.

/moderator hat off

 

[Scott Peterson]

All due respect, you are fueling the fire. Seems like you are in defense mode. Tim makes some good points.

I am fueling nothing. I am enforcing the common sense rules of the board - no personal antagonizing. "Seems like" isn't my game. I deal in what is. We do not allow personal slams. We had attacks on Jay, Guitar-Tiz and Cliff. That is all that was removed. That sort of thing does not stand on this forum as long as I am a moderator.

If you disagree, take it up with an Administrator.

This has nothing to do with Tim. And you are right, he does make good points. So do I. We don't need to agree for them to be good points. Nothing I removed was from Tim. Ask him if you do not believe me. I know Tim, Tim knows me. We talk off the boards and have for years. Folks add drama and 'anger'; there is not a hint of either in relation to me, my actions as moderator or my posts.

 

[maxdown]

Is this thing still bloody going?? Seems like it's right off track now - time for a lock down or just can the whole thing .... it's pointless ..... we've heard enough evidence to make our own decisions. This forum, I thought, was a place to come to learn about and gain support for Fractal's gear??

 

[hippietim]

About generalizing and veggies: If you find a given pepper too spicy, are all peppers too spicy for you?

That's hard to say Scott. I'll let you know when I encounter one :lol:mrgreen

 

[MaxTwang]

This thread has redefined 'hippie' and 'moderate'.

The first 20 seconds of this video sums it all up. Carry on ...

 

[kickatch]

I would think about getting the axe fx II if I thought the effects would be better but I'm not sure it would be that much better. At this point Amp sims is not a factor for me.

I actually think other units and pedals sound better then the axe fx far as effects go but the axe fx sounds good enough and the routing is the reason I like to use it. Before the axe fx I had two switchers and about 10 pedals and three rack units for effects. I would really like to hear about the effects more then the amp sims.

Can the flanger sound like my 78 mxr flanger , ada flanger or hartman flanger?

Can the chorus sound like my analogman or retro sonic chorus?

Can the delay sound like eventide?

Can the harmonizer sound like a eventide?

Can the phaser sound like 1974 mxr phase 90?

Can the reverb sound like a lexicon?

I think all these units do effects better but you got the problem of having a ton of gear in your rack. If you can tell me the effects have gotten that much better then I would be more inclined to buy it.

 

[NeoSound]

Someday I think we will evolve beyond stereo-typing ideas, concepts and even people. until then please continue

 

[axel]

I am fueling nothing. I am enforcing the common sense rules of the board - no personal antagonizing. "Seems like" isn't my game. I deal in what is. We do not allow personal slams. We had attacks on Jay, Guitar-Tiz and Cliff. That is all that was removed. That sort of thing does not stand on this forum as long as I am a moderator.

If you disagree, take it up with an Administrator.

This has nothing to do with Tim. And you are right, he does make good points. So do I. We don't need to agree for them to be good points. Nothing I removed was from Tim. Ask him if you do not believe me. I know Tim, Tim knows me. We talk off the boards and have for years. Folks add drama and 'anger'; there is not a hint of either in relation to me, my actions as moderator or my posts.

alrighty then...

 

[Scott Peterson]

I would think about getting the axe fx II if I thought the effects would be better but I'm not sure it would be that much better. At this point Amp sims is not a factor for me.

I actually think other units and pedals sound better then the axe fx far as effects go but the axe fx sounds good enough and the routing is the reason I like to use it. Before the axe fx I had two switchers and about 10 pedals and three rack units for effects. I would really like to hear about the effects more then the amp sims.

Can the flanger sound like my 78 mxr flanger , ada flanger or hartman flanger?

Can the chorus sound like my analogman or retro sonic chorus?

Can the delay sound like eventide?

Can the harmonizer sound like a eventide?

Can the phaser sound like 1974 mxr phase 90?

Can the reverb sound like a lexicon?

I think all these units do effects better but you got the problem of having a ton of gear in your rack. If you can tell me the effects have gotten that much better then I would be more inclined to buy it.

The effects algorithms have been redone in the II versus the Ultra/Standard. The II can do those effects and many of them are easily dialed up with effect "type" now available in each block to get you started getting those exact effects. Just my opinion and experience. YMMV.

 

[Dinkledorf]

Someday I think we will evolve beyond stereo-typing ideas, concepts and even people. until then please continue

Haha, bingo.

 

[BigD1977]

I would think about getting the axe fx II if I thought the effects would be better but I'm not sure it would be that much better. At this point Amp sims is not a factor for me.

I actually think other units and pedals sound better then the axe fx far as effects go but the axe fx sounds good enough and the routing is the reason I like to use it. Before the axe fx I had two switchers and about 10 pedals and three rack units for effects. I would really like to hear about the effects more then the amp sims.

Can the flanger sound like my 78 mxr flanger , ada flanger or hartman flanger?

Can the chorus sound like my analogman or retro sonic chorus?

Can the delay sound like eventide?

Can the harmonizer sound like a eventide?

Can the phaser sound like 1974 mxr phase 90?

Can the reverb sound like a lexicon?

I think all these units do effects better but you got the problem of having a ton of gear in your rack. If you can tell me the effects have gotten that much better then I would be more inclined to buy it.

Why ask for direct models when there's evolving to be done? Did Jimi Hendrix want to use stuff that sounded like everyone else, or did he not go an evolve? What makes a Lexicon 480L sound good? How about the TC Electronic 2290? It wasn't because they wanted to emulate old units, that's for sure. I mean, even Eventide didn't stop when they designed the H3000. They came up with the Orville, which was an improvement. The 1176 compressor only became a standard in studios when it was found that an anomaly of it's construction resulted in pumping on drum busses that sounded good. However, instead of trying to find uniqueness, we're stuck in the guitar community with emulation-itis.

What you have here is smoke and mirrors. We're told that something sounds good because it was used on a certain record, therefore we're conditioned to accept, and even aspire to that sound, even if it was substandard in the first place. Hence, we have not had a culture of trailblazers musically for the percentage of the population that plays guitar, in the same way as sax or trumpet players. We should have fifty Miles Davises, or Birds, or John Bonhams. Instead, we have emulators.