Tuning stability issues

Bojangles said:
Yeah id definitely be a bit worried about modifying such a nice guitar for a khaler, probably just easier buying a second hand cheap ibanez or something with a floyd on it, best of both worlds
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I'm looking at that option as well... I have also been thinking about just bitting the built and routing this guitar for a Floyd and just be done with it. I have been scouring the net for info to see if it has been done. I have found a few that have gone the other way with ugly results but not from a Wilky to a Floyd. I have printed out routing digrams to see if it will work which it will. I figure I can get it done for around $300 with an actual Floyd Pro and routing templates doing the labor my self.

Anyone have experience with the Golden Age Trems that StewMac sells? They don't look too bad for half the price of an Actual Floyd, small down side is the string spacing is about a 1.5mm wider then what's on the guitar now. Did some measuring and it will fit and shouldn't be to big of a deal. The Radius is right so no shimming needs to be done just pin the old post holes do some minor routing, cut the nut shelf, put it to gather and set it up. ​

What do you think?
 
Sixstring said:
I have the trem set to dive only and set the springs up a little tight so it pulls the trem back to zero point that I have set with the Tremol-No.
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This is the first place I'd look. The Tremol-No wasn't intended to be constantly loaded when locked. You lock it when the trem is at its natural zero point. Unlock the Tremol-No and see what happens. If your problem goes away, the trouble is with the 'No. If the problem persists, it's the guitar that's acting up.

If you don't do this test first, you could spend a lot of time chasing the wrong thing.
 
Have you tried something like this?

STEWMAC.COM : Mitchell Abrasive Cord

String or thick thread with a mild car polish/wax can be used to polish nut slots. Some car polish has abrasives, some have a mild solvent, so you want to use sparingly and clean it up after (toothpaste and dental floss is reported to work too). It only takes a couple passes to polish a slot, too much and you'll deepen the slots. Also, make sure you don't change the angle of the slots by putting more pressure on the fretboard side or you could end up with funny vibrations at the nut.

Have you tried temporarily re-adjusting the trem for pull up and dive bomb to determine the cause of the problem (I've had similar tuning issues with Fender vintage and Gotoh 510 trems setup to down only).
 
Maybe it's not just the nut or the Bridge...maybe it's the setup of the guitar.
I bought a brandnew Ibanez Premium RG927QM 7-String Guitar, and had some issues with the tuning stability and the intonation. My guitar teacher, who is also a specialist, when it comes to guitar setup, needed 3 hours to finetune it. Since this day I haven't any issues anymore.

He uses a Fender 1963 Stratocaster with all original parts, he's doing dive bombs and from Funk to Metal....no tuning issues...and NO locking trem. His opinion is, that a guitar with the right setup, which means the string gauge, together with the Neck setup made proper, stays far better in tune than a locking trem guitar with no or the wrong setup. He also used many locking trem guitars over the years, and seeing him playing real shredding divebomb and speed picking action without any tuning issues.....I believe him.

So, maybe you find a good guitar technician next to your location, who can handle your problem...
 
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Rex said:
This is the first place I'd look. The Tremol-No wasn't intended to be constantly loaded when locked. You lock it when the trem is at its natural zero point. Unlock the Tremol-No and see what happens. If your problem goes away, the trouble is with the 'No. If the problem persists, it's the guitar that's acting up.

If you don't do this test first, you could spend a lot of time chasing the wrong thing.
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Yup, that was my thought too, I went through the Tremol-No and made sure nothing was binding prior to setting it for Dive only. If you don't set up the claw and locking post 90 degrees to each other the parts will bind and it will not work at all. Prior to installing the Tremol-No the problem was there, in a full floating setup the strings would still hang with a dive of more then a half step, a quick pull up and everything would almost go back to where it was anything more forget it.

After all my investigating and tuning I'm pretty confident that there isn't a fix for this aside from changing it over to a locking system.


MaxTwang said:
Have you tried something like this?

STEWMAC.COM : Mitchell Abrasive Cord

String or thick thread with a mild car polish/wax can be used to polish nut slots. Some car polish has abrasives, some have a mild solvent, so you want to use sparingly and clean it up after (toothpaste and dental floss is reported to work too). It only takes a couple passes to polish a slot, too much and you'll deepen the slots. Also, make sure you don't change the angle of the slots by putting more pressure on the fretboard side or you could end up with funny vibrations at the nut.

Have you tried temporarily re-adjusting the trem for pull up and dive bomb to determine the cause of the problem (I've had similar tuning issues with Fender vintage and Gotoh 510 trems setup to down only).
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I have not used the abrasive cord but I did try the tooth paste and dental floss trick after widening the slots just to make sure the strings weren't hanging on the front and sides of the nut which didn't really help ether.

I have read up on every little pice of info I can find on this subject and the only thing I can find that points to the issue is the nut cupled with the head stock tilt. On Strats it's an easer fix as the head stock is not tilted so there is no pressure point to create friction. The Carvin with the CT head stock has 8 degrees of tilt and it is enough to create friction and cause the strings to hang. I will say it's not a problem with light use of vibrato on the trem anything more and it goes out of tune.

I'm not 100% sure I'm going to do this mod, I an thinking about it. I'm also thinking about just grabbing a cheep guitar with a floyd on it and forget about doing any mods to the Carvin at all.
 
Assuming the Tremol-No is not the issue.....

Try this:

Since you have no tools,.....isolate which strings are going sharp. If you find the Low E, A and D strings are going sharp, ....try using the stings itself as a file. Carefully run the strings thru the slots a few times to smooth out and/or widen it. You can achieve very accurate results since the strings diameter sets the slot. Be careful and look very closely, preferably with magnifiers so that you can make sure you are not going beyond the set slot depth.

You may be able to fix the G, B and High E with the same approach.
 
Rex said:
This is the opposite of the problem you initially reported. I'm confused. Does it return sharp or flat?
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That's consistent with his description and strings binding at nut. Sharp after a dive, flatter after pulling up.

Binding at the saddle can also cause this, so you might want to check & lube the contact area.
 
reclavea said:
Assuming the Tremol-No is not the issue.....

Try this:

Since you have no tools,.....isolate which strings are going sharp. If you find the Low E, A and D strings are going sharp, ....try using the stings itself as a file. Carefully run the strings thru the slots a few times to smooth out and/or widen it. You can achieve very accurate results since the strings diameter sets the slot. Be careful and look very closely, preferably with magnifiers so that you can make sure you are not going beyond the set slot depth.

You may be able to fix the G, B and High E with the same approach.
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Yup, tried that approach as well and it did help with the low E and G strings but they still hang to some degree.

Rex said:
I must've read it wrong. I thought he was saying it hung flat after a dive.
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Yes... the strings return sharp after a dive bomb. With the trem in floating mode I could pull up and return them to pitch for the most part. That in mind the issue with the nut becomes pretty obvious.
 
I see...... not withstanding that they (nut slots) may still be the problem.......check.....the Tremol-No install.

I've installed several Tremol-No devices. Both the Floyd Rose and the Fender (pin type) versions.

Make sure that the Tremol-No clamp extension is in perfect alignment with the trem block. If not....there could be friction between the rod and the thumb lock extension. A couple gtrs I worked on had this very problem and going sharp/flat.

Set the trem to full floating. The trem should feel very very smooth. If not....you could almost sense the binding or stutter as you move the trem up and down.
 
reclavea said:
I see...... not withstanding that they (nut slots) may still be the problem.......check.....the Tremol-No install.

I've installed several Tremol-No devices. Both the Floyd Rose and the Fender (pin type) versions.

Make sure that the Tremol-No clamp extension is in perfect alignment with the trem block. If not....there could be friction between the rod and the thumb lock extension. A couple gtrs I worked on had this very problem and going sharp/flat.

Set the trem to full floating. The trem should feel very very smooth. If not....you could almost sense the binding or stutter as you move the trem up and down.
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Yes I did that as well noted in post 25. I have done a few Tremol-No installs and am well aware of the alignment issues you can have with that system. I even wen as far as to lube all the friction points just to make sure.
 
Sixstring said:
Yes I did that as well noted in post 25. I have done a few Tremol-No installs and am well aware of the alignment issues you can have with that system. I even wen as far as to lube all the friction points just to make sure.
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Sorry....didn't catch post 25 :-(

Hope you work things out.

Do you have string trees installed?

A couple other suggestions:

1. Use very minimal string winding around the locking tuner.

2. Try Graphite powder or pencil lead on the nut slots. Not sure what type of oil you use but string may still bind depending.
 
boolean said:
I found this clip interesting, although I have yet to try his suggestion. Awesome player as well ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Iy-F7iSIopA
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Yup seen this one as well. The differences here are that the Strat headstock is relatively flat, no tilt which equals little to no nut friction. Angle that head stock like the Carvin CT and he will have the same issues I have currently.

Also as a side note placing the springs at different locations on the claw and trem block is a myth. A solid fulcrum point will not translate tention differently with the given spring and string tentions that are present on a guitar. If anything it will cause the knife edges on the trem plate and pressure points on the posts to wear inconsistently.
 
reclavea said:
Sorry....didn't catch post 25 :-(

Hope you work things out.

Do you have string trees installed?

A couple other suggestions:

1. Use very minimal string winding around the locking tuner.

2. Try Graphite powder or pencil lead on the nut slots. Not sure what type of oil you use but string may still bind depending.
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That's ok man ;) at least you covering all the bases. No string trees on the CT, I have run that gambit as well with the pencil led shavings and making sure I have no more then 1/2 to 3/4 of a wrap on the tuning posts. I even tried the chap stick trick with no luck.
At this point I think it's just not going to happen with out locking it down.

So now I just need to decide if I'm going to mod this guitar with a Floyd, which is doable and given it already has a trem on it would probably be considered an up grade to the guitar as a whole. Or just find a cheep guitar with a floyd on it which I could do but I know me and I would probably not play it that much because it's not this guitar... if that makes any sense :?. I have actually locked it completely and just playing it and really liking the way it plays. I just want to hit those VH trem tricks every now and then to keep me happy :lol.
 
Is the nut a typical Fender type?

You think a Graphite nut will do it?

btw......I outfitted my Fender Strat with a Point tremolo system. Locking tuners and bone nut. Works great and stays in tune. Interesting concept this Point Tremolo system!
 
reclavea said:
Is the nut a typical Fender type?

You think a Graphite nut will do it?

btw......I outfitted my Fender Strat with a Point tremolo system. Locking tuners and bone nut. Works great and stays in tune. Interesting concept this Point Tremolo system!
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The guitar came with a Graphteck nut installed, who makes the point trem system?
 
Sixstring said:
The guitar came with a Graphteck nut installed, who makes the point trem system?
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Graphtech nut? And still binding?!!

The Point tremolo is very unique. There is some routing that needs to take place in addition to the traditional Strat trem cavity. The Trem itself has a couple "cone" metal contact points. A separate part with two metal cone pins are mounted in a small routed cavity just upfront of the main cavity. These pins (points) sits into the other 2 cone openings that is fixed on the trem.....hence "Point Tremolo". It is so smooth and because the fulcrum points are very near the centre of the trem,....it allows for very sensitive expressive play on the trem movements. Similar to a Bigsby or Jaquar trem feel but way more expressive. I believe a 1/4" movement in either direction is equivelant to 1/2" or so on a standard trem. Not sure if they are still available. Their site was up last month but as of yet the site is down. I got mine in 2002 and just installed it a year ago!

Here's info on the Point Technologies Tremolo:

The Point Technologies
 
reclavea said:
Graphtech nut? And still binding?!!

The Point tremolo is very unique. There is some routing that needs to take place in addition to the traditional Strat trem cavity. The Trem itself has a couple "cone" metal contact points. A separate part with two metal cone pins are mounted in a small routed cavity just upfront of the main cavity. These pins (points) sits into the other 2 cone openings that is fixed on the trem.....hence "Point Tremolo". It is so smooth and because the fulcrum points are very near the centre of the trem,....it allows for very sensitive expressive play on the trem movements. Similar to a Bigsby or Jaquar trem feel but way more expressive. I believe a 1/4" movement in either direction is equivelant to 1/2" or so on a standard trem. Not sure if they are still available. Their site was up last month but as of yet the site is down. I got mine in 2002 and just installed it a year ago!

Here's info on the Point Technologies Tremolo:

The Point Technologies
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Very interesting... How do you adjust corse action hight?
 
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