Tuner issues - tuners disagree from each other

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Johnkenn said:
I wasn’t really complaining about anything. I have the Peterson :). That being said, Cliff has said before that there’s nothing wrong with it and it works properly. So 🤷‍♂️
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Not sure why I replied to your post, but didn't mean to single you out. I mean it more like an addendum to what you're saying.
I personally rely on a Peterson HDC and the strobe part matches the AF. In terms of tracking the note and even trying to tune an acoustic through the built-in piezo mics on the AF, it seems to make the tuner jump all over the place, thus why I have a HDC.
 
fuzzydude said:
I think if you took a poll on whether to improve the tuner or make the amps/FX on the AF even more exactly accurate, everyone would agree that the tuner can take a back seat. It's mostly serviceable in the majority of cases.

I know it's not perfect on the Axe, I'm even disappointed with it like I would be with a weak A/C on a Lamborghini, but I'm not at all disappointed in Cliff's decision to prioritize his time and brain on the real reason we spent the big bucks on Fractal products.
I'd say the same about the FC shortcomings and I've bellyached about those for ages.
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What do you feel needs to be improved about the tuner? In my tests it's accurate to within 0.1 cents.
 
FractalAudio said:
What do you feel needs to be improved about the tuner? In my tests it's accurate to within 0.1 cents.
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1. Wider calibration range--a semitone or more, not 78.7 cents like the current 430-450 Hz range. Then there won't be gaps in the pitch continuum where a reference pitch can't be made to read in tune.

2. More accuracy around D (10th fret high E) and above, maybe. With any guitar here or a keyboard as a simple tone generator it seems like the accuracy becomes more like ±3 cents in that range, until C & Db which are off even more, reading around +8 and -10 cents respectively. The strobe wheel also spins really fast on the Db and the tuner seems to get confused about whether it's that Db or an octave lower.
 
FractalAudio said:
What do you feel needs to be improved about the tuner? In my tests it's accurate to within 0.1 cents.
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Personally I don't have a problem with the accuracy, but then I only rely on the AF's strobe tuner.

I do second @Bakerman 's other points. Many of the most famous songs, have wild tunings from A440, either on purpose or by accident. Sometimes the result of the recording studio or instances where the band would just tune to each other instead of a good reference.

I made a post where with my limited understanding (I may be wrong), I figured if we improved the tuning to 427Hz <-> 453Hz (±3Hz/±10 cents beyond the current tuning limitation of 430Hz <-> 450Hz) or a ±50 cents tuning range it would allow us to move up or down semitone(s) to hit any tuning we want. That would be the last you would hear from anyone saying they can't tune to X frequency.

The other item is the strobe wheel jumpiness and seeming to get confused in certain tuning situations like when tuning acoustics but also with some pickups. It will jump from tuning for one string to another. The behavior seem to be helped by making minor changes on the tone with the onboard acoustic electronics but still not anywhere as stable as the Peterson HDC with no changes on the acoustic at all. Tested on Yamaha and some expensive Martins.

I don't know but that last firmware has me questioning whether we should be getting you off-track at all. You're already making the most important changes where they are the most effective. I can certainly wait. :cool:
 
My understanding was that the strobe reading and the gauge reading are measuring different things and/or using different techniques. Not so much that it disagrees with itself.

Regarding different tuning devices, I can’t help feeling that the beastly axe with all that power would not be inferior to whatever can be squeezed into a pedal.

But feelings are notoriously unscientific, so I guess the best thing would be to compare each to a recorded tone, like a sine wave, and then a recorded guitar string with all its lovely complexity.

That’s my 2 cents, but we no longer have 2 cent coins in Australia, and my opinion isn’t worth 5 cents.
 
SweetPete said:
Laxu, regarding the ST-300. I assume the display on yours is stable, thus you continue using it, correct? I bought one not too long ago, and ended up sending it back. With 5 different guitars/pickups, I could not get a stable display on the ST-300, which drove me nuts. No such problem with my Peterson HD or my FM9.
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Yup it's been rock solid so far.
 
fuzzydude said:
a ±50 cents tuning range it would allow us to move up or down semitone(s) to hit any tuning we want.
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I've been wishing for +/- 50 cent tuning offsets since the Axe II days. I would love it to actually happen, as it would save me from carrying another pedal around.
 
Bakerman said:
1. Wider calibration range--a semitone or more, not 78.7 cents like the current 430-450 Hz range. Then there won't be gaps in the pitch continuum where a reference pitch can't be made to read in tune.

2. More accuracy around D (10th fret high E) and above, maybe. With any guitar here or a keyboard as a simple tone generator it seems like the accuracy becomes more like ±3 cents in that range, until C & Db which are off even more, reading around +8 and -10 cents respectively. The strobe wheel also spins really fast on the Db and the tuner seems to get confused about whether it's that Db or an octave lower.
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Something wrong with whatever you are using to generate tones. Here are results of tuner accuracy for the the high E string:
Code: 
Note    Freq        Measured Error
B        493.88 Hz    0.1 cents
C        523.25 Hz    -0.5 cents
C#       554.37 Hz    0.0 cents
D        587.33 Hz    -0.3 cents
D#       622.25 Hz    2.4 cents
E        659.26 Hz    0.6 cents

The tuner was optimized for open strings. It was never intended for use as an intonation tool. For that you should always use a high-quality, dedicated strobe tuner.

Here are the results for open strings:
Code: 
Note    Freq        Measured Error
E        82.41 Hz    0.1 cents
A        110.0 Hz    0.0 cents
D        146.83 Hz    0.0 cents
G        196.0 Hz    0.1 cents
B        246.94 Hz    -0.2 cents
E        329.63 Hz    0.0 cents

If you can hear 0.2 cents then you should use a different tuner. It should be noted that the pressure of your finger on the strings can incur up to several cents, or more, of pitch shift.
 
Isn't it a fool's errand to measure fretted notes on any tuner? With the completely off temperament of any fretboard (even the True Temperament fretboards aren't going to get you where Pythagoras would be aiming for in every key), string guage, action, pressure, attack, fret wear, inadvertent bend on the string from the fretting fingers, I would think there's just no point.
 
FractalAudio said:
Something wrong with whatever you are using to generate tones. Here are results of tuner accuracy for the the high E string:
Code: 
Note    Freq        Measured Error
B        493.88 Hz    0.1 cents
C        523.25 Hz    -0.5 cents
C#       554.37 Hz    0.0 cents
D        587.33 Hz    -0.3 cents
D#       622.25 Hz    2.4 cents
E        659.26 Hz    0.6 cents
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I said "around D (10th fret high E) and above". The C and Db an octave above the ones you listed are the ones with less accurate readings. My keyboard works fine as a tone generator but here's what the tuner displays while looping a synth block's output back to an input.

F (13th fret high E note): 2.7 cents
F# 0.8 cents
G 4.9 cents
G# -1.3 cents
A -0.4 cents
Bb -5.1 cents
B 1.6 cents
C 8.2 cents
C# -0.6 cents but wrong octave/freq. indicated (554.2 Hz) and it acts funny just above this, jumping to the correct octave when actual pitch reaches +9 cents, but tuner displays -4.4 cents then
D 3.4 cents
D# -1.7 cents
E (24th fret) 2.4 cents but wrong octave
 
Bakerman said:
I said "around D (10th fret high E) and above". The C and Db an octave above the ones you listed are the ones with less accurate readings. My keyboard works fine as a tone generator but here's what the tuner displays while looping a synth block's output back to an input.

F (13th fret high E note): 2.7 cents
F# 0.8 cents
G 4.9 cents
G# -1.3 cents
A -0.4 cents
Bb -5.1 cents
B 1.6 cents
C 8.2 cents
C# -0.6 cents but wrong octave/freq. indicated (554.2 Hz) and it acts funny just above this, jumping to the correct octave when actual pitch reaches +9 cents, but tuner displays -4.4 cents then
D 3.4 cents
D# -1.7 cents
E (24th fret) 2.4 cents but wrong octave
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The tuner isn't designed to tune notes that high. It's designed to tune a guitar. Typically people tune open strings and the tuner is optimized for that. I'm not even sure what the point would be tuning a guitar on the 24th fret.
 
This brings up a good point. Is there a specification on what the AF tuner was designed for?
Of course, I don't know what it was designed for, but it was probably also designed to tune a bass too. Although many 5-string basses don't register very well and need to be tuned on the 12th fret harmonic for the low E and B with the AF tuner.
A tuning spec would certainly be something to have for anyone bringing this up in the future.
If it's not on the spec sheet, of course it's not doing what you want.
 
FractalAudio said:
The tuner isn't designed to tune notes that high. It's designed to tune a guitar. Typically people tune open strings and the tuner is optimized for that. I'm not even sure what the point would be tuning a guitar on the 24th fret.
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Isn't it common that you have to be able to at least check up to 12th fret when you are intonating your guitar?
IIRC, not everyone feels you should check much higher, but I thought 12th fret is common and required.
So if you can't reliably check pitch there, you can't reliably intonate using that tuner?
That can be seen as fair of course. We're not intonating during a gig, I think.
It's also possible that you consider a harmonic at fret 12 "open string" and a good method that works well with the tuner (haven't tested).
 
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Brewce said:
Isn't it common that you have to be able to at least check up to 12th fret when you are intonating your guitar?
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I think it's just the standard point (compromise) where you can get close on the rest of the frets in accuracy if your 1st and 12th fret have equal tuning.
Brewce said:
That can be seen as fair of course. We're not intonating during a gig, I think.
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For a gig, you definitely should have a backup guitar for every tuning. But now imagine your main guitar gets dropped and you notice the neck is a bit twisted. The open notes are in tune still but you want to at least check your intonation before moving to your backup guitar because that one doesn't sound as nice. Wouldn't you want to double-check the intonation in a few seconds before starting the song?
 
fuzzydude said:
Wouldn't you want to double-check the intonation in a few seconds before starting the song?
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"Sure," but I wanted to give Cliff an out ;) -- mainly because I suspect that for me it will be close enough, seeing the nature of the guitar.

I don't tune to all open strings either, so I hope positions close by are still in the optimal range... I also suspect the Axe does it better than my old Korg rack tuner. It can be a blessing to not have golden ears ;)
 
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Just have to put this out there, as I see many people for some reason seems to be unhappy with the Axe tuner, which puzzles me. 🤔

Between all the rack, pedal, clip and handheld tuners I've used over the years, the Axe tuner is by far superior in my opinion! I play drop-c on a les paul, and the only tuner that was fast enough to somewhat display the pitch-jump, right when picking the string, was the Korg Pitch-black racktuner - essential to be able to tune any downtuned or 7-8 string guitar. Until then I had to mostly rely on my ears, when tuning...which sux when you play in a death metal band...😳

After I got the Axe though, it's been a sweet ride tuning, super fast and reliable! I also have my 7 string dropped down to A, still no problems. At the moment I even have the Axe set to Dimebag tuning (425hz - yup, it's possible combining 430hz, with the offsets!), making my life so much easier in the Pantera project I am currently working in. 😁
 
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Brewce said:
Isn't it common that you have to be able to at least check up to 12th fret when you are intonating your guitar?
IIRC, not everyone feels you should check much higher, but I thought 12th fret is common and required.
So if you can't reliably check pitch there, you can't reliably intonate using that tuner?
That can be seen as fair of course. We're not intonating during a gig, I think.
It's also possible that you consider a harmonic at fret 12 "open string" and a good method that works well with the tuner (haven't tested).
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Several posts above yours I stated the tuner isn't designed to be an intonation tool. It's designed to tune a guitar at a gig and it works extremely well for that purpose.
 
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