Strange Low End Issue - Don't Give Up On Me Folks!

To be totally honest, it still sounds like fret buzz caused be too low action to me. Do you have any measurements of your string height?
 
Figured I'd throw this in here. I started a thread (because of seeing this thread actually) about a similar low end issue. There are a few tidbits of information in there that don't seem to be in here. Still dealing with low cut type options but a few things in addition to whats been posted here. A few guys definitely suggested a few things I can try when I come across too much flub in a preset. Maybe this will help a little bit further: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/tired-of-this-bass-flubbyness.131181/
 
I was gonna start a new thread too.. I just found myself increasing the low cut in the cab block to 400Hz, which is quite awkward as I normally have it around 130... Still, even with the 400Hz cut, the low E string still sounds squashed, like an ebow going into a blown speaker.. And I've tried all kinds of guitars: 3 different les pauls, 2 strats, a tele...I had already noticed it with Q8.02, although at gig level it was not a major issue, but with 9 it is quite annoying at gig level too.. and that's with the new speaker comp at 0
 
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Warrior said:
Factory presets still had same issue. Yes, tried going to FRFR.

However, as "Rex" suggested, kicking in the "Cut" with did help. But...... (see below)



THIS ^^^^^ Clarky really did the trick!!

I must ask though, does that characteristic that was giving problems exist in the actual amp the model was modeled after?
Nit being critical of this model but understanding this will help me better understand how to address these issues when/if they arise again.

Also, the audio test that Jason Scott provided using my preset (see page 2) sounded much better. Curious why?

Is there, perhaps some other setting I'm neglecting to address?
Click to expand...
this is just sucking out strong lows coming from your guitar and so preventing that thick low end 'bloom'
 
Just a thought. Could it have anything to do with the switchable resistors in the front input section failing? If the issue is not external (guitars or cables), it must be something before the amp sims in the Axe Fx.
 
Warrior said:
Factory presets still had same issue. Yes, tried going to FRFR.

However, as "Rex" suggested, kicking in the "Cut" with did help. But...... (see below)



THIS ^^^^^ Clarky really did the trick!!

I must ask though, does that characteristic that was giving problems exist in the actual amp the model was modeled after?
Nit being critical of this model but understanding this will help me better understand how to address these issues when/if they arise again.

Also, the audio test that Jason Scott provided using my preset (see page 2) sounded much better. Curious why?

Is there, perhaps some other setting I'm neglecting to address?
Click to expand...

I've found that some amp models get really 'excitable' in different areas especially when they start generating gainier tones..
some really excite the hi's and get shrill / fizzy, others really excite the lo's and get boomy / bloomy
I can only assume that the modelling, being as accurate as it is, replicates the real amp warts'n'all..

this fix with the filter is taming the lows coming from your guitar, denying this amp model the ability to really get hold of them and 'do it's worst'..
it's not uncommon for folks to do similar things with real amps by using drive stomps [like a tube screamer] set clean because it'll cut the hi's and lo's but leave the mids for the amp to chew up.. alternatively an eq stomp can do the same by shaping the freq range of the signal from the guitar before stuffing it into the amp..
this filter block is simply doing the same as a real world application...

having sorted out this bloom with the filter, it you find the resultant tone is thin in the lo-end, put it back with the GEQ in the amp block because this happens after the preamp and power amp modelling has done it's thing..
putting that deep lo-end back does not necessarily mean giving the 125 / 250 bands a great big boost either..
you can get a deep low end by simply cutting the 500 band by a handful of dB..
low-mids and bass do not play well together.. cutting the 500 band will decongest the lows and give a greater sense of apparent depth..

so.. you're cutting the lo's before the amp to fix the tone..
then letting the amp do it's thing with what's left..
and finally fixing up the tone after the amp..
the result you are looking for is a balanced tone with all the desired characteristics...
this is all "corrective EQ"
 
clarky said:
I've found that some amp models get really 'excitable' in different areas especially when they start generating gainier tones..
some really excite the hi's and get shrill / fizzy, others really excite the lo's and get boomy / bloomy
I can only assume that the modelling, being as accurate as it is, replicates the real amp warts'n'all..

this fix with the filter is taming the lows coming from your guitar, denying this amp model the ability to really get hold of them and 'do it's worst'..
it's not uncommon for folks to do similar things with real amps by using drive stomps [like a tube screamer] set clean because it'll cut the hi's and lo's but leave the mids for the amp to chew up.. alternatively an eq stomp can do the same by shaping the freq range of the signal from the guitar before stuffing it into the amp..
this filter block is simply doing the same as a real world application...

having sorted out this bloom with the filter, it you find the resultant tone is thin in the lo-end, put it back with the GEQ in the amp block because this happens after the preamp and power amp modelling has done it's thing..
putting that deep lo-end back does not necessarily mean giving the 125 / 250 bands a great big boost either..
you can get a deep low end by simply cutting the 500 band by a handful of dB..
low-mids and bass do not play well together.. cutting the 500 band will decongest the lows and give a greater sense of apparent depth..

so.. you're cutting the lo's before the amp to fix the tone..
then letting the amp do it's thing with what's left..
and finally fixing up the tone after the amp..
the result you are looking for is a balanced tone with all the desired characteristics...
this is all "corrective EQ"
Click to expand...
@clarky 's back! :)
 
JoeyBTL said:
Figured I'd throw this in here. I started a thread (because of seeing this thread actually) about a similar low end issue. There are a few tidbits of information in there that don't seem to be in here. Still dealing with low cut type options but a few things in addition to whats been posted here. A few guys definitely suggested a few things I can try when I come across too much flub in a preset. Maybe this will help a little bit further: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/tired-of-this-bass-flubbyness.131181/
Click to expand...

The example you provided in your post sounds exactly like what's been happening with mine.

clarky said:
I've found that some amp models get really 'excitable' in different areas especially when they start generating gainier tones..
some really excite the hi's and get shrill / fizzy, others really excite the lo's and get boomy / bloomy
I can only assume that the modelling, being as accurate as it is, replicates the real amp warts'n'all..

this fix with the filter is taming the lows coming from your guitar, denying this amp model the ability to really get hold of them and 'do it's worst'..
it's not uncommon for folks to do similar things with real amps by using drive stomps [like a tube screamer] set clean because it'll cut the hi's and lo's but leave the mids for the amp to chew up.. alternatively an eq stomp can do the same by shaping the freq range of the signal from the guitar before stuffing it into the amp..
this filter block is simply doing the same as a real world application...

having sorted out this bloom with the filter, it you find the resultant tone is thin in the lo-end, put it back with the GEQ in the amp block because this happens after the preamp and power amp modelling has done it's thing..
putting that deep lo-end back does not necessarily mean giving the 125 / 250 bands a great big boost either..
you can get a deep low end by simply cutting the 500 band by a handful of dB..
low-mids and bass do not play well together.. cutting the 500 band will decongest the lows and give a greater sense of apparent depth..

so.. you're cutting the lo's before the amp to fix the tone..
then letting the amp do it's thing with what's left..
and finally fixing up the tone after the amp..
the result you are looking for is a balanced tone with all the desired characteristics...
this is all "corrective EQ"
Click to expand...

Everything you said makes sense and I will try your tips, thank you.

However, it's odd that I'm experiencing this characteristic in many amps that are seemingly very different from one another. (and it appears some others are as well).

I'm curious if there is a small issue occurring that perhaps Cliff might be interested in?
 
Warrior said:
The example you provided in your post sounds exactly like what's been happening with mine.



Everything you said makes sense and I will try your tips, thank you.

However, it's odd that I'm experiencing this characteristic in many amps that are seemingly very different from one another. (and it appears some others are as well).

I'm curious if there is a small issue occurring that perhaps Cliff might be interested in?
Click to expand...

just a thought...
if it's just one guitar doing this maybe take a look at it.. pup height, age / condition of strings etc..
if you're experiencing that low end bloom from all of your guitars, then it's unlikely it's a guitar issue
short of shaping the tone I'm not sure what to suggest..
if you think it's firmware related, backup your presets, download the firmware afresh [rather than using the version you have] and re-load the unit
 
clarky said:
just a thought...
if it's just one guitar doing this maybe take a look at it.. pup height, age / condition of strings etc..
if you're experiencing that low end bloom from all of your guitars, then it's unlikely it's a guitar issue
short of shaping the tone I'm not sure what to suggest..
if you think it's firmware related, backup your presets, download the firmware afresh [rather than using the version you have] and re-load the unit
Click to expand...

It does this on all of my guitars.
I backed up to Q8.02 and it still did it.
 
bradlake said:
Time for a support ticket
Click to expand...

I submitted one on 9/30.

Cliff did respond to this thread early on but it was with an audio example that did have some fret buzz. He dismissed it as the culprit (understandably so) and missed the point I was trying to make.

Hopefully he'll get a chance to dive back in.
 
i dont have time to experiment with your preset, but i found that in my case messing with "dynamic presence" (even with neutral compression) helps with strange low or high end issues with edge distortions (and/or high pass)
 
guitarnerdswe said:
To be totally honest, it still sounds like fret buzz caused be too low action to me. Do you have any measurements of your string height?
Click to expand...

from the first post: "I'm getting some strange low end on this model."
it's not the hi's the OP is having an issue with, it's the lo's
 
clarky said:
from the first post: "I'm getting some strange low end on this model."
it's not the hi's the OP is having an issue with, it's the lo's
Click to expand...
To be fair, fret buzz is usually more prominent on the low strings, and his initial clips had a noise that sounded a lot like it. Even Cliff got fooled ;)
 
Warrior said:
It does this on all of my guitars.
I backed up to Q8.02 and it still did it.
Click to expand...
I've just tried the 800 mod myself with your settings and without a filter in front cutting the lows
I do get the bloom but not as strong as you
one thing this amp seems to do with long sustained notes is to loose the energy of the hi's quick quickly leaving just the lo's / lo-mids..
this is less strong on open strings but far more pronounced with fretted notes on the E and A string...
so when I played a G [E string 3rd fret] I got a similar bloom to you but not quite as strong..

as you play notes further up the neck you'll naturally lose top end because the string is becoming effectively shorter and therefore more rigid.. so the further up the neck you go the string loses the ability to produce top end.. this is normal..
some amp choice make this effect stand out more I guess..
essentially.. you're producing less top end from the string, the amp naturally doesn't sustain the hi's well, and then the amp's natural compression starts boosting what's left.. which is your lo's.. hence the bloom..

the filter I suggested mitigates the problem by denying the amp all that energy in the lo's..

you observe that a lot of amps do this..
consider that a lot of amps by other manufacturers are variations on the Marshall theme
so maybe it's not so surprising that they exhibit similar behaviours..

why is your bloom a fair bit bigger than mine?.. I'm not so sure..
- what is your string gauge?
- how hard do you hit the string?
- what is your I/O / Instr In setting?
- how long is your guitar cable?
- does the guitar go directly into the Axe or is there something in between?
guitar -> Vol -> Axe for example?
 
just had another lil' thought..
if your action is very low or your neck doesn't have quick enough relief you'll get some fret buzz..
and we can hear this in the original clip..
I know the buzz itself is not an issue for you, however the low end bloom could be a side effect of this..

I may be talking complete sh1te here.. but bear with the thinking..
you pick a fretted wound string [G on the E for example]
the string is buzzing against a fret and so the fret is knocking energy out of the hi's
the hi's will therefore fade quite quickly and just leave the string vibrating with what's left.. the lo-mid's / lo's..
the amps natural compression gets hold of this and so accentuates the bloom..

if all your guitars are setup the same way they're all exhibit the same behaviour..

experiment: raise the action until the buzzing stops [so the string can ring freely and try again..
if the bloom subsides then you're onto something..
so check the relief and the string height
 
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