Steve Lukather delay use | The Final Mystery?

[vAmp]

I've put this here so this mystery (to me) will get enough attention

Yes, I've read lots and lots of threads on Luke's PCM-70 delay settings and uses at HRI and Fractal forums, however I'm still left with "important" questions that don't get adressed or don't seem to be known... :mrgreen:

I think we all agree the main info is here and would be correct:
http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewt ... 507#465507

My main and partly unaddressed questions in that thread are:
http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewt ... 114#636114

Luke in control room demoing PCM-70 delays
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yV7lyV1m1c

Circular Delay
- the info that seems most likely to me is saying this delay is really quiet, "always on" and therefore functions as a reverb without tail, but there is also confusing info by some...
- presets released with this delay always(?) seem to have it quite loud, which has confusing potential for people that want to experience it like Luke

Panning Delay
- said to be used during most solos; seems most probable to me, probably most often in parallel with the Circular Delay? (since the Circular is so quiet, it won't muddy anything up, nor add much to it, so simplest to leave on?)
- some dare say it's the first one in the YouTube clip (I tend to agree) and some not, and...
- ...it's almost always on (I doubt that)
- I've seen presets in the vain of Luke/Landau that use Dual Delays. Is that just a preference, can they do the same, or do they not know it's not the same?

So if I must, I can live with the info from Flukather and my own conclusions, program for it or copy and study from presets.
My question remains for the HUGE delay I love.

*If* we would agree that the circular delay is a very quiet one, and the first delay in the clip is the panning delay, what is the HUGE second delay in the clip?

- Is that the panning delay in parallel/series with the circular delay on a much higher volume?
- Is this the panning delay in parallel with another longer time delay (suggested settings?)
- Is this the panning delay going into another delay (series)? (suggested settings?)
- Other...?

It seems to me even the guys "in the know" can't agree on this and I feel the question is unaddressed, telling me the info is all in there, etc. ;-)
I'm hoping more experienced people can hear clearly if these are delays in parallel or series and suggest settings

TIA!

 

[R.D.]

V ...,

I followed that thread over @ HRI. First of all, are you using an Axe-Fx ( Ultra ) or are you using the analog gear ?

Next, I don't think the circular delay ( by itself ) is a quiet as you think. The left and right repeats are quite a bit further back, but the one center repeat is a pretty decent level ( if I remember right ) ....

Also, I think in Luke's rack the two PCM's are wired in series. So, I think the "order" in which they are patched will make a HUGE difference. If the Pan Delay is running into the Circular Delay you'll get a much more pronounced effect than if it's the other way around ....

I think people that are substituting a Dual Delay are only doing that because they don't have access to the original Lexicon's or the Axe ( which has a diffusion setting ) to better mimic those units !

Finally, do some clip searching here ! There are a few ( I don't remember where they are ), but they do a GREAT job of coping Luke's 80's ( heavy effects ) tone.

Good Luck !

 

[VegaBaby]

Do you have an example of the 'Huge' Delay ?

 

[vAmp]

First of all, are you using an Axe-Fx ( Ultra ) or are you using the analog gear ?

I've been an Ultra guy for almost a year, but only v9 has finally inspired me to get deeper into it and start my journey

Next, I don't think the circular delay ( by itself ) is a quiet as you think.

Interesting. Actually both possibilities are starting to make sense to me... Maybe the volume is right in between
Do you think the first in the clip is the pan or circular delay?
VegaBaby thinks pan, and I tend to agree. But I can't believe this is the "always on" delay..., could it?

Also, I think in Luke's rack the two PCM's are wired in series.

I've always thought they were parallel and went into a mixer (I will try and check that on Bob Bradshaw's site).
My first thought for the HUGE delay also makes me think of 2 delays in series though (but I guess it could be parallel as well).

So, I think the "order" in which they are patched will make a HUGE difference.

At least we have a HUGE in there Keep talking

I think people that are substituting a Dual Delay are only doing that because they don't have access to the original Lexicon's or the Axe ( which has a diffusion setting ) to better mimic those units !

Possibly, but I'm talking about joCCe's Axe-FX presets (Landau/Luke) in this case. He might not care or prefer the dual delays and also uses reverb (anyway joCCe, huge thanks for your classy clips and presets, they seem awesome to start out with! )

Finally, do some clip searching here ! There are a few ( I don't remember where they are ), but they do a GREAT job of coping Luke's 80's ( heavy effects ) tone.

I'll delve into that further after I solve a MIDI problem. Been going over some with the editor.
Well, it's not that difficult to get into that feel with any delay, but I'd like to finally hear it how he uses it, now that it's possible with the Axe-FX.

Do you have an example of the 'Huge' Delay ?

The second delay after 40 secs in the mentioned YouTube clip, when he says you can add one "on top" of it.
I only remember him using that one on solo spots with Little Wing and on some other few occasions.

If the units are parallel, I think we cannot account for the HUGE delay w/o a preset change... Thx so far. We'll see who else chimes in

After I copy or program them, I can of course do two tests in series, and maybe it will come out HUGE

 

[VegaBaby]

Right...from what I hear in that clip, he first uses the Panned Delay (he says 'it bounces left and right like this'), then he switches to a different one of his programs and adds the Circular. I think he runs both of them parallel, so they don't go into each other. If he'd have them in series I think there would be a lot more repeats and rhythmic patterns going on. That's a least to how it sound to me when he stops playing...each Delay on its own.

 

[vAmp]

Right...from what I hear in that clip, he first uses the Panned Delay (he says 'it bounces left and right like this'), then he switches to a different one of his programs and adds the Circular. I think he runs both of them parallel

That would be the logical thing, yes...
But purely from the numbers of the Circular (888 584 292), I was doubting that.
The HUGE delay gives you a feeling of "seconds" of space, so I had ruled that out.
Maybe its another psycho-acoustical phenomenon...

 

[vAmp]

I think I'll just have to try these two in parallel, and I could be in for a surprise

The logical thing would be:
- one "always on" delay (probably not the first one of the clip, but the circular?)
- the other one for solos
- both parallel for HUGE delay

I'm starting to think that these delays in parallel *will* get this HUGE sound.

But then the volume is still a mystery. It think it would need to be quite a bit louder for the HUGE delay than for the "always on" delay, but I might be wrong there, since he often seems to have his delay pretty loud.
It's just confusing because of the guys telling the "always on" is pretty quiet, to function more as a reverb.

Maybe javajunkie already knows, or other guys that played with the circular.
I'll just tune the one in the Axe-FX presets and add a pan delay in parallel, that will be the quickest test for me at the moment.

 

[VegaBaby]

I think I'll just have to try these two in parallel, and I could be in for a surprise

The logical thing would be:
- one "always on" delay (probably not the first one of the clip, but the circular?)
- the other one for solos
- both parallel for HUGE delay

I'm starting to think that these delays in parallel *will* get this HUGE sound.

But then the volume is still a mystery. It think it would need to be quite a bit louder for the HUGE delay than for the "always on" delay, but I might be wrong there, since he often seems to have his delay pretty loud.
It's just confusing because of the guys telling the "always on" is pretty quiet, to function more as a reverb.

Maybe javajunkie already knows, or other guys that played with the circular.
I'll just tune the one in the Axe-FX presets and add a pan delay in parallel, that will be the quickest test for me at the moment.

Logically, it would make sense. The Circular's focus is more around the middle which just gives it that reverby kinda space which works good for 'in the background' whereas the Panned focuses on the stereofield spread, which pulls the sound to the side and makes it huge (there's your word :lol: ).

Btw., I've been using Circular and Panned delays since years, way before I had my Ultra and way before I even knew that Lukather uses them (never analyzed his tone) . Running them together...never tried that, but it's definitely food for thought and soooooo easy to do with the Axe

 

[craiguitar]

I have tried the Panned Dly + Circulay Dly settings in series (But in parallel to the main signal) and it sounds a bit too washy for my liking. Not as focused as the Panned delays on their own. I suspect not being able to correctly set the delay times might hinder this slightly. Using the Multi Delay block, I can't seem to get 888/584/292. I can only get the 292 to the correct value. A quirk of this delay block maybe??

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I have tried the Panned Dly + Circulay Dly settings in series (But in parallel to the main signal) and it sounds a bit too washy for my liking. Not as focused as the Panned delays on their own. I suspect not being able to correctly set the delay times might hinder this slightly. Using the Multi Delay block, I can't seem to get 888/584/292. I can only get the 292 to the correct value. A quirk of this delay block maybe??

Nothing wrong with the delay block. Those few milliseconds really don't matter.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Hi!

I'm a huge huge Luke fan, and I can answer you questions. Lets just say I know more than it than I should :mrgreen: I have so many bootlegs of Luke, both solo and with Toto it's silly. I read every interview, analyse every recording as for as sound and effects, and have spent 10 years being a Luke nut. I have spent specially much time on PCM70 part of his rig. His settings, how he hooks it up, how he uses it on differents songs from different eras etc.

First I must say, that he uses BOTH the Circular and Panned Delays on both rhythm and lead tones, depending on the song or his mood for the day. He also uses them together in parallel for what people call his "huge delay" sound. He never does that on rhythm tones though, only leads.

Don't pay attention to how peoples "Luke" preset are mixed. Luke uses his effects in parallel in his mixer in his rack, so just use your ears as to how much delay he uses. Btw, his tech also turns down the output of the PCM70s at the end of solos, songs and breaks, because the feedback of the Panned and Circular Delays is quite high, meaning they have ALOT of repeats, too much when he goes from a lead to rhythm part, or at the end of songs. That's why they do it like that. Also, he has NEVER used a pedal to control the mix of the delay. NEVER

The Circular delays is NOT always on. Never has, and never will be I should know this with the collection of bootlegs and cds I have with Luke. He uses is "as a reverb", meaning he uses it to get some depth and space behind the dry tone. He mixes it quite low for the most part ( some parts of his career he has had it almost as loud as the panned delays, like Paris 90 show ). The volume of the different delay line in the preset are different, but the total volume level of the effect compared to his dry tone is quite low. He uses the Circular delays when he wants a more subtle delay that is more tucked in behind the dry tone, so it's not as obvious, just to give it some depth. He doesn't use it for those "Wow DELAY moments", at least not by itselfs. Then he uses:

The Panned delays. Just as with the Circular Delays, he uses it for both rhythm and lead stuff. He doesn't use the Panned Delays THAT OFTEN. I would say a good 70-80% of his delay-use is just the Circular Delays by itself. He uses the Panned Delays when he want's it to be very evident that the tone has delay on it, and mixes it quite a bit louder in volume than the Circular Delays. When he uses the Panned Delays, it's mostly for leads, but I have heard him use it for rhythm parts, such as on Led Boots of the El Groupo CD. His huge delay sound is just both delays together in parallel, and he only uses that on leads, and VERY rarely. I would say that if he uses it ( some shows he doesn't ), it's only 1 or 2 places. Most obvious use is on Little Wing of the Paris 90 live concert. He starts of with the Panned Delays, but switch on the Circular together with the Panned, quite early in the song.

Anyway, besides the rare use of another delay unit in his rack for The Edge-type delay things, these are the only 2 delays he has been using LIVE since around 1989. On some bootlegs I have from the mid to late 80s, he is sometimes using other types of delays, in conjunction with both the PCM70 delays ( not at the same time though ).

Lastly, regarding the settings of the delays. The info Flukather has provide over HRI is DEAD ON accurate, just want to make that clear. To get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion to around 15%. I've spent hours comparing the diffusion in the 2 units, and this is the closest you get. The diffusion the Axe doesn't sound exactly the same as the PCM70, but it does the job.


Ok! Long post I know, but I wanted to make sure everything was included. Everything I stated is correct, if anyone says anything else, I know for a fact that they are wrong Hope this helps!

 

[VegaBaby]

When you say he runs both of them parallel, do you mean they both are independant and parralel to the dry tone ? So it's not like he's running the Circular in series into the Panned or vice versa which then is in parallel to the dry tone, right ?

 

[marco70_italy]

When you say he runs both of them parallel, do you mean they both are independant and parralel to the dry tone ? So it's not like he's running the Circular in series into the Panned or vice versa which then is in parallel to the dry tone, right ?

Exactly the same question I was typing!
My understanding is that the dry line is in parallel with other two wet lines, each one with a PCM, one for panned and one for circular, through the effect mixer.

Tonygtr could you confirm that?

 

[guitarnerdswe]

When you say he runs both of them parallel, do you mean they both are independant and parralel to the dry tone ? So it's not like he's running the Circular in series into the Panned or vice versa which then is in parallel to the dry tone, right ?

Yes, they are in parallel with eachother as well as the dry signal.

 

[VegaBaby]

Ahh, thanks. That was my understanding from the clip the OP had on HRI. Good to get it confirmed

 

[R.D.]

tonygtr …,

You are definitely the “Luke” tone guru aren’t you !

I think I’ve got the Axe “equivalent” of both the Panned Delay and Circular Delay down pretty good. Especially since you were able to confirm that Flukather’s PCM 70 settings over @ HRI were correct. The last piece of the puzzle was where to set the Diffusion ( very cool – thank you ) :!:

And I don’t know who it was …, but someone else here on the board came pretty darn close to the “frozen flange” setting that Luke was using a lot right around the time he put out that DVD for Star Licks ….

Now that covered …, lets discuss how he is using his 3+SE Pre-Amp …. That’s another area where there seems to be a lot of mystery with what he’s “really” doing :idea:

I’ve heard that he basically only uses channel 1 ( clean ) and channel 2 ( rhythm ) :?: That he rarely ( if ever ) uses channel 3 :?: For solos he’s still on channel 2, but he adds either a TS-808 or at one point he used the Radial Engineering Tonebone Classic … :?:

Is any of that true …, or is it pretty much B.S. too :?: Do you know approximately how he’s setting his gain & tone controls ? I’m not even sure if his Pre-Amp model is the SE ( it might be the original 3+ ) :?:

Thanks for your insights :!:

 

[guitarnerdswe]

tonygtr …,

You are definitely the “Luke” tone guru aren’t you !

I think I’ve got the Axe “equivalent” of both the Panned Delay and Circular Delay down pretty good. Especially since you were able to confirm that Flukather’s PCM 70 settings over @ HRI were correct. The last piece of the puzzle was where to set the Diffusion ( very cool – thank you ) :!:

And I don’t know who it was …, but someone else here on the board came pretty darn close to the “frozen flange” setting that Luke was using a lot right around the time he put out that DVD for Star Licks ….

Now that covered …, lets discuss how he is using his 3+SE Pre-Amp …. That’s another area where there seems to be a lot of mystery with what he’s “really” doing :idea:

I’ve heard that he basically only uses channel 1 ( clean ) and channel 2 ( rhythm ) :?: That he rarely ( if ever ) uses channel 3 :?: For solos he’s still on channel 2, but he adds either a TS-808 or at one point he used the Radial Engineering Tonebone Classic … :?:

Is any of that true …, or is it pretty much B.S. too :?: Do you know approximately how he’s setting his gain & tone controls ? I’m not even sure if his Pre-Amp model is the SE ( it might be the original 3+ ) :?:

Thanks for your insights :!:

His "frozen flange" was the Dytronics tri-stereo chorus. I think the reason for it sounding more flanger-like than the other versions of the tri-stereo chorus, is that the delay time used is shorter, making it "swoosh" alot more. The quad-chorus in the Axe can pretty do this easy.

If we talk about how he uses the preamp now and basically the last couple of years, he never uses the clean channel, unless he is doing jazzier chord stuff. He stays on CH2 about 80% of the time, and alternates between CH2 and CH3 for leads. His rhythms are pretty much always CH2 (unless he uses the clean channel like I mentioned earlier ), and CH3 is never used for leads.

He used a tubescreamer a bunch of years ago (around 2002 and a few years forward ), after that the Tonebone. Nowadays, he uses the T-Rex Spindoctor as his "over the top" gain pedal.

Regarding what version his preamp is, now it's SE all the way. From 91-92 to 94, he used the original 3+. around 95 when the SE came out, he updated CH3 to SE specs, and kept CH2 at none SE specs. The none SE CH2 has more gain and has more high end, brings out the "stringyness" in the tone more than the SE CH2 which is smoother and cleaner. Btw, CH1 is the same on both versions.

His settings have varied quite a bit during the years. His current settings are in the link further down. Note that you can zoom in 2 times on the pics, and that the mids and lows on CH3 usually are straigt up, but for some reason are dailed up on this gig. Also note that he has "voicing" switches on his VHT poweramps ( essentially low and high boosts, that also cut the mids), as well as depth and presence. Those are all off nowadays ( presence and depth on zero). He used them alot a bunch of years ago though.

http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/j ... kather.htm

 

[R.D.]

His "frozen flange" was the Dytronics tri-stereo chorus. I think the reason for it sounding more flanger-like than the other versions of the tri-stereo chorus, is that the delay time used is shorter, making it "swoosh" alot more. The quad-chorus in the Axe can pretty do this easy.

Thanks again for the information !

I guess it's back to the woodshed to come up with something to emulate the Dytronics .... Any pointers there ?

Also you mentioned to get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM 70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion ( ? ) to around 15% ....

What is the 2nd parameter ? I only found the diffusion time ?

Thanks !

 

[VegaBaby]

Also you mentioned to get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM 70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion ( ? ) to around 15% ....

What is the 2nd parameter ? I only found the diffusion time ?

Thanks !

The second parameter, Diffusion, is just called that, Diffusion. It sets the amount of Diffusion in % and should be right next to Diffusion Time.

 

[craiguitar]

Also you mentioned to get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM 70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion ( ? ) to around 15% ....

What is the 2nd parameter ? I only found the diffusion time ?

Thanks !

The second parameter, Diffusion, is just called that, Diffusion. It sets the amount of Diffusion in % and should be right next to Diffusion Time.

I also only found 1 diffusion parameter (in %). There is certainly no other Diffusion parameter next to it (at least in the multi delay block anyway)
But then my unit is a standard, and perhaps it exists in the Ultra :?:

Either way, I am splitting hairs now, as the sound I am getting is pretty damn good.

Big thanks to Tonygtr for clearing up the parallel issue. I have now placed my delay blocks parallel to each other as well as to the main signal, and that smooths things out a lot. A lot less messy than before anyway.